Ok, let’s get serious here. A popular professor at NYU’s Stern School of Business replied to a student’s email in a way that is part jerkface but mostly, part sage life advice. Deadspin reports that a student walked into the 1st day of class an hour late and the professor told her to leave & come back to the next class. In the comments section, most people were surprised to find themselves siding with the professor, citing topics like the rudeness of interrupting 80 people who pay full tuition to the foolishness of “shopping” 3 classes in the same time slot. The professor actually XXXX’d out the student’s name and emailed it to all of his students! See below.. what’s your take on this?
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2010 7:15:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Brand Strategy Feedback
Prof. Galloway,
I would like to discuss a matter with you that bothered me. Yesterday evening I entered your 6pm Brand Strategy class approximately 1 hour late. As I entered the room, you quickly dismissed me, saying that I would need to leave and come back to the next class. After speaking with several students who are taking your class, they explained that you have a policy stating that students who arrive more than 15 minutes late will not be admitted to class.
As of yesterday evening, I was interested in three different Monday night classes that all occurred simultaneously. In order to decide which class to select, my plan for the evening was to sample all three and see which one I like most. Since I had never taken your class, I was unaware of your class policy. I was disappointed that you dismissed me from class considering (1) there is no way I could have been aware of your policy and (2) considering that it was the first day of evening classes and I arrived 1 hour late (not a few minutes), it was more probable that my tardiness was due to my desire to sample different classes rather than sheer complacency.
I have already registered for another class but I just wanted to be open and provide my opinion on the matter.
Regards,
xxxx
—
xxxx
MBA 2010 Candidate
NYU Stern School of Business
xxxx.nyu.edu
xxx-xxx-xxxx
The Reply:
—— Forwarded Message ——-
From: scott@stern.nyu.edu
To: “xxxx”
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2010 9:34:02 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Brand Strategy Feedback
xxxx:
Thanks for the feedback. I, too, would like to offer some feedback.
Just so I’ve got this straight…you started in one class, left 15-20 minutes into it (stood up, walked out mid-lecture), went to another class (walked in 20 minutes late), left that class (again, presumably, in the middle of the lecture), and then came to my class. At that point (walking in an hour late) I asked you to come to the next class which “bothered” you.
Correct?
You state that, having not taken my class, it would be impossible to know our policy of not allowing people to walk in an hour late. Most risk analysis offers that in the face of substantial uncertainty, you opt for the more conservative path or hedge your bet (e.g., do not show up an hour late until you know the professor has an explicit policy for tolerating disrespectful behavior, check with the TA before class, etc.). I hope the lottery winner that is your recently crowned Monday evening Professor is teaching Judgement and Decision Making or Critical Thinking.
In addition, your logic effectively means you cannot be held accountable for any code of conduct before taking a class. For the record, we also have no stated policy against bursting into show tunes in the middle of class, urinating on desks or taking that revolutionary hair removal system for a spin. However, xxxx, there is a baseline level of decorum (i.e., manners) that we expect of grown men and women who the admissions department have deemed tomorrow’s business leaders.
xxxx, let me be more serious for a moment. I do not know you, will not know you and have no real affinity or animosity for you. You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on his laptop. It’s with this context I hope you register pause…REAL pause xxxx and take to heart what I am about to tell you:
xxxx, get your shit together.
Getting a good job, working long hours, keeping your skills relevant, navigating the politics of an organization, finding a live/work balance…these are all really hard, xxxx. In contrast, respecting institutions, having manners, demonstrating a level of humility…these are all (relatively) easy. Get the easy stuff right xxxx. In and of themselves they will not make you successful. However, not possessing them will hold you back and you will not achieve your potential which, by virtue of you being admitted to Stern, you must have in spades. It’s not too late xxxx…
Again, thanks for the feedback.
Professor Galloway
**Edit 4/10/13: A friend who has taken Prof Galloway’s course at NYU says this story is legend and confirms that he uses this as an example of why not to be late to his class. And I also wanted to note, I don’t know who the student is or what their gender is. And I wanted to add just 1 extra note, I appreciate everyone’s well written comments. You guys are all smarter than me.
Things Doanie Likes 
I love this. He is dead on to hose this kid. You may have heard that NPR set this letter to music this weekend, with excellent results: http://totaldrek.blogspot.com/2010/03/get-your-shit-together.html
If only MORE leaders could be this NON-POLITICALLY CORRECT and just “shake the baby”, maybe there wouldn’t be as many dumb-asses in charge in America. Morons of Rank. Just drives me up the wall, man. Thank you, Prof. G!!!
Shaken baby syndrome can seriously damage infants. Find a better analogy.
This has absolutely zero to do with “political correctness” as you’ve framed it. In fact, I’d say this professor was actually insisting on politically correct behaviour, which is respect and understanding for the situations of others.
Ron, in what world is having respect a sign of political correctness???? If nothing else, the student was seeking seeking understanding as to why he came in late. The teacher flat out told him to stop whining and get his shit together. HOW ON EARTH is that political correctness???
Steve, he obviously wasn’t trying to seek understanding. He even explicitly states at the end “…I just wanted to be open and provide my opinion on the matter.” So let’s not make the kid into the victim, that kid wrote the email egotistically thinking he was in the right. Unfortunately, for him it was the wrong choice. Secondly, before you blow a gasket over what Ron said, re-read it. He didn’t say the professor was being politically correct, he said that the professor insisted on politically correct behavior. Whether or not the professor conveyed/should’ve conveyed the behavior that he insisted the student have is a whole different argument. So calm down a bit with those extra questions marks. 😉
FYI: I have taken classes at at least 4 different college level universities over my career. I was a student at some at a couple others just taking a class I was interested in to advance my career. At EVERY university, there was a UNIVERSITY LEVEL policy that if you are 15 minutes late, you are not allowed into class. But this also applied to the *professors.* If your professor was 15 minutes late, class was dismissed. Simple as that.
While I understand what she was trying to do, she went about it the wrong way. It would have been better to meet with each professor or a student who has taken their class and investigated it that way. Would you ever go to three different employers and hang out for an hour and then move on until you found one you liked? No.
This was something she should have learned in orientation.
I don’t really see it as being politically incorrect by any definition. He worded everything quite encouragingly, and I treasure people that can be that brutally honest with me.
Yea, she could have approached the professors beforehand, but I’m actually going to have to side with the student here. It’s not like sampling an employer.. because she’s the one paying HER money to take the class. HER money is providing his paycheck. I hate how some professors think it’s OK to get up on their high horses and treat students like garbage when the student is paying a lot of money to take that class. She should be able to do whatever she wants as long as it’s not disrupting the class, and walking calmly into a class mid-lecture and sitting down isn’t THAT distracting.
I agree with the profesor 100%
@Common Sense – Yes, you can walk into a movie late, but some announce they can throw you out for texting. It is destracting to other paying customers. If you go to a play, a concert, or a dance performance, many times you will not be allowed to enter until a break.
Yes, we pay a lot for college. On the other hand, professors are also expected to have a certain passing rate. Students showing up late, texting, etc. is not conducive to the learning environment. In classes where participation is important, everyone is held back when students do not keep up. Behaviour not supportive to learning is not fair to anyone. Students fall behind and professors are pressured to pass them anyway. Then, a lot of money is spent on tuition without the desired learning to show for it. Personally, as a professor, lateness does not bother me. I barely notice it and it doesn´t offend me. However, I really do believe it holds the student, and the class as a whole back. I may try to more effectively discourage late arrival. There are always students who arrive late to class and expect me to give them the portion of the exam they have missed. I have stopped doing so. I am not payed for that. I would have to give every exam multiple times. Other behaviours do not distract me personally, but other students complain about them. Also, texting and other destractions do affect learning for everyone when participation is important. Even when participation is not important, I believe it can be destracting to others. It detracts from the focused energy that I would want to see in a classroom. As a student, I appreciate high expectations from the professor. On the other hand, as a professor, I try to address issues in an encouraging manner.
This is actually for Sandy up there at 3:05pm. I’m sick of students with that exact attitude of yours that professors are paid from a students tuition and should be allowed to do what they want. This leads to an environment of entitlement in the classroom, grade inflation to placate students who become dumber and dumber as time goes on, and threats of law suits for poor grades. You pay for the privilege of being in the class room with access to the educational materials. It’s very similar to having concert tickets. Would you go to a concern for the Rolling Stones and demand they play the song YOU want because you’re entitled to it? What if that song you wanted to hear wasn’t even theirs? Sit down, shut up, pay attention, do the work, and you’ll EARN something from class.
Do you know what I love about all these troll responses? Not a single one of them, was grammatically correct. Do not pretend to lecture populace reguarding a collegate sharing of instance, and expect to be respected. Even this post, I do not expect repore from. Nor will I ever again read it.
@ Sandy. This student is paying for access to the professor’s experience, knowledge and expertise, not the course per se. So, by entering his classroom an hour late she wasn’t only disrespectful she was potentially cheating herself out some of her tuition money.
I am tired of a society that caters to people who can’t (or won’t) follow the rules. GET TO CLASS ON TIME!
I like the professor answered the student because the student’s feedback was not appropriate. I would say: “Well Done Professor”.
I am replying to the person who goes by the name of “Grammar Nazi”. Normally, I would not correct another person’s grammar and spelling on a website, because one simply cannot assume nowadays that everybody knows the rules for correct grammar. However, you have brought this upon yourself.
Do you know what I love about all these troll responses? Not a single one of them, [NO COMMA GOES HERE!] was grammatically correct. Do not pretend to lecture [the or a] populace reguarding [regarding. I noticed that this word was marked as incorrect, so you have no excuses there.] a collegate sharing of instance, and expect to be respected. Even this post, I do not expect repore from [repore is not even a word. Also, your grammar in this sentence is atrocious. Do not end a sentence with a preposition! Furthermore, this sentence makes no sense] . Nor will I ever again read it. [Once again, the atrocity of your grammatical structure is painful to behold]
Please, for the sake of mankind, use proper grammar if you consider yourself a “Grammar Nazi”. Your abuse of the English language, and of your fellow comment-makers, horrifies me. Trolololol
Totally agree about the “shaken baby syndrome” comment being a horrible analogy, J.
Professor’s just expect people in college to act like adults and treat it like a job. My mom is a professor and works 70 hour weeks and puts her all into. The students are expected to be doing the same.
I love how Grammer Nazi has multiple misspellings (concerned citizen missed the misspelling of collgIate), and misuses, of words in his reply. His/her ridiculously garrulous attempt at appearing intelligent is reminiscent of a Mike Tyson quote. Stop putting yourself up on a pedicure, Nazi.
As for the class, as a Stern Alumni the student’s email to the professor aggravates me too. The idea of shopping around classes doesn’t bother me. However, their claim of ignorance is either a lie or I feel a little less proud of my degree.
I never had Galloway but his reputation as a stickler is very well known. This student had many options to approach this situation. Many of the course syllabi are posted online prior to the class, or emailed directly by the professor to his roster. If not, they could have emailed him ahead of time to check if it was okay with him. There is simply no way that this student could honestly claim that it was impossible for them to know it was a huge risk to stroll into class the first day an hour late.
@Grammer Nazi –
If you are going to label yourself as the “Grammar Nazi”, please check your own grammar and spelling. Grammar is spelled with an “a” and “regarding” is not spelled the way you wrote it. Rapport is not spelled “repore” and you ended the sentence that includes that word with a dangling participle.
@Sandy
I hope you realize that by doing what this student did (“shopping” around for classes), her registration in 3 separate courses actually took away from 1-2 other students’ opportunities to achieve that same education. Saying that because students are the ones footing the bills, they should be able to “do whatever they want” is no excuse for egotistical behavior and a misuse of the educational system. What makes this student’s right to an education any more important than another student’s (who, by the way, is also required to pay for it).
**And if the student was not actually even registered in the courses (rendering my previous comment irrelevant), then he/she had absolutely no business disrupting the learning in each of the classrooms to begin with. I agree with numerous other comments, that if the student was that interested in “sampling” each of the classes, it should have been something that was pre-arranged with each professor beforehand. Also, the student should have planned to attend each class in its entirety so as to not disrupt the environment. Anyone who thinks that this might be a bit “overkill” should just do what the rest of us do….pick a damn course and deal with it!
Sorry, if a student is paying $50K a year for school (or more) then they can surely do what this student did. And, while I guess it’s kind of rude, the student sent a nice email and the professor responded like a petulant child. It was also the first day of class. The first week or two of any college schedule can change dramatically with add/drops or simply getting lost or whatever. Six weeks into the semester, maybe this is ok. But first day? Sorry, professor is an asshole.
Yeah, I mean once you pay someone enough to cover the dry cleaners, you can literally defecate on their head.
You’re an idiot.
As he stated, the student easily could have emailed the professor or TA to at least give them heads up, let alone ask permission. A specific tuition doesn’t give the student power over the professor’s lecture schedule. Most schools give you a week or two to add or drop classes, he/she could have attended the different lectures on different days rather than segments of each all in one night. I highly doubt anyone would show up to a dinner, a meeting, a class, or an appointment and assume there would be no problem.
Wow. You are so self important and entitled. You should take the professor’s advice. Grow up, “Keira Knightly”.
You are an idiot actually covers it pretty well
This wasn’t college it was an MBA grad school class. In grad school schedules don’t change as dramatically as they o in undergrad. Additionally to be in an MBA program the student was probably 25 or older, a that age the student should have just swollowed his anonymous embarrasmen and not emailed the professor just to chastise him. Also just because you pay for a class doesn’t mean you now own the right to do whatever you want with the class. You pay for the opportunity to learn
Since you seem to believe that the amount of money paid makes a difference — how much did the other students pay? Shouldn’t they be able to get their money’s worth of teaching time for which they’ve paid? Why doesn’t xxxx offer to pay the other students for the time which she’s wasted by interrupting class? Could it be for the same reasons she thinks nothing of barging in and then writing a thinly-veiled snarky email — an inflated sense of entitlement, poor judgment, and abysmal manners?
The student is not a customer.
This is the type of attitude that differentiates the talented from the accomplished. If you think that paying tuition entitles you to such ridiculous decision-making, you deserve to fail and throw your money away. You don’t pay for a degree — we’re not just providing a service. You are paying for the resources it costs to educate you, and tuition NEVER covers the full cost of educating a student. Furthermore, grad/professional school isn’t just post-undergrad; it is on-the-job training, do Lesson #1 is that you do things right or fall short. Do the world a favor and give your tuition dollars to charity — you’ll get more out of them.
This isn’t a college freshman showing up late to Intro to Philosophy. He’s an MBA student learning how to function as a business professional (and apparently a human being). As a professional – you can’t get away with showing up an hour late to something. I don’t care who you are.
Simple decorum is always necessary. Would you show up for a date an hour late? A job interview 15 minutes late? Your wedding 5 minutes before you’re scheduled to walk down the aisle? Regardless of shopping around for a class, you’re setting a precedent and the professor was bang on in calling her out, especially when he explicitly states how this student not only disrespected his class but two others by walking out of the class early and showing up to another class late. One professor told me this and to this day I abide by this rule: If you’re on time, you’re late, and if you’re 10 minutes early, you’re on time. That’s how adults behave.
I’ve dealt with people like you my entire life ( I am almost 60) and this generation has got a HUGE shock coming when they are finally thrust into the grown up world and have to fend for themselves. I see you whining that you cannot set your clock on the DVD player, fix minor things on their own computer, you can or will not do much of anything for yourself, that is someone elses job (just who this someone is, is to be determined)..you hit 15 and think you are the Donald…we all owe you just because you breathe. A student is in a school to LEARN, he/she is NOT the teacher. Try thinking outside yourself and show up on time, you think your boss will be fine with you showing up when you want to and leave when you choose? OMG, I hope I live long enough to have the last laugh..and hey, I could not finish college, I had to support 2 families, I owned a business that I started from scratch, married a Navy man and traveled all over, but always and I mean always took care of my family, friends and anyone who needed it…and I cannot wait till YOU leave mom and dads basement and find the world does not give a damn about you, you are not the princess or prince.
Money does NOT purchase the right to treat others with disrespect, EVER.
If there are 80 other students who are all paying $50k/year for tuition, the professor has every right not to let one loser ruin the class for everyone else.
The student is not a customer. The professor is a respected expert who is being paid for the privilege of accessing their time and imparting their knowledge. The only one who loses when the student fails to make the effort required to learn is the student, who has thrown their opportunities away.
Dondura,
Why the emotion? It seems like you have ill will towards the younger generation. Why not be encouraging instead of demeaning? The fact that you look forward to reveling in someone else’s pain tells me you are not quite at peace with yourself in the world, which is unfortunate given that you are “almost 60”.
I do have an issue with your version of the “Kids these days…” trope. My issues:
1) The generalization that the youth aren’t good with technology (ex: “whining that you cannot set your clock on the DVD player, fix minor things on their own computer”) – Huh? Younger generations, generally speaking, have a better intuitive understanding of technology than the older generations. As someone who works in Tech, I find your generalization the exact opposite of what data and common sense purport.
2) You didn’t finish college, yet you were able support 2 families – Congrats! Do understand that the current generation coming out of college are entering a VASTLY different economy from the one you experienced. When you were a kid, you could live a decent middle class lifestyle with less than a college degree. That’s not so easy anymore. Wages are stagnating & falling for those without advanced degrees. Our economy is moving from what once used to a labor-intensive economy to a capital-intensive economy, which doesn’t make it easy for would-be job seekers.
3) College is exponentially more expensive nowadays (even inflation-adjusted) than it was when you were a kid. The average graduate of college is $26,000 in debt. Did I mention that their job prospects are slim as well?
4) Overall, the lack of understanding that your generation RAISED the current generation. That the current generation is left growing up with the remnants of what your generation has done. The current generation is on the hook for paying for your retirement (SS), yet will not have the privilege of being supported by it themselves.
What you need to understand is that nearly every generation does the “Kids these days…” cliche without understanding that they are culpable for the younger generation. Every generation is essentially the same, it’s just the environment in which we grow up in which helps shape what can be done.
I do hope you are able to gain this sort of perspective, and not feel ill will towards younger humans who may be having a tough time because their economic environment is one which is slightly different than the one you grew up with. You shouldn’t thrive on other’s failures. Help them succeed.
You MUST be an undergrad student. Get over yourself.
No, the student is a customer. You all sound like a bunch of whiny little losers. Oh dear lord, the horror of someone arriving late! What a waste of 0.5 seconds, the time it takes for people to turn their head and look at the door, and then turn back. Good thing this very smart professor decided to drag out what could have been nothing. I think the lesson here is don’t pay 50k a year so some jerk can act like YOU owe him something.
College is a waste of time, the whole system needs a total overhaul. My success in life has been 100% independent of my college degree. I don’t owe college professors anything at all.
You’re full of crap Yoy
I don’t agree with the notion that money should have any serious consequences on pure ethical behaviour. And neither does this help educate a more mature society. Do you want to say that if I have enough cash I should be allowed to defecate on the roof of the Capitol Building? (As Wall Street effectively does!). I am not really excited about the price of the higher education today, it’s just another form if business now, but it’s for the good of this kid that has received a lesson in ethics this early in his life. Hope he takes it into his heart!*
Sorry Kierra but you are very wrong on this matter. The student paid 50K a year? so what? When I was in culinary school we had students show up late daily, some an hour or more late. Others would get to our 6 am class and sleep through demo and lecture. These students were the first to bitch and moan about “never being taught that.” It was students like me who suffered the most from those students having to constantly deal with them asking me how to do something, borrowing (actually I mean stealing) my notes, and in a few cases trying to pass off my own work as theirs. I was in pastry classes dealing with this where every step is vitally important to the finished product, having any part stolen or being distracted while dealing with 300 degree sugar because someone slept in is unacceptable. Have any idea what happens when you pour 2 pounds of 300 degree sugar on human flesh? they have a bad week. I paid out my ass to get an excellent education and I will be damned if I would allow someone to jepordise that because they want to weigh their options or sleep an hour longer. Grow up, think about your actions, and make friends because you’re gonna need them.
I don’t think ‘defecate on the roof of the Capitol Building’ is a good analogy.
With higher education, the student is the buyer, and the university (represented by the professor) is the seller. The student is exchanging a large amount of cash for the services of the university. In your analogy, who is selling the right to defecate on the roof of the Capitol Building? In that analogy, I would question the seller more than I would the buyer of the opportunity to defecate on the roof. Why would someone sell that?
Did the student exhibit bad social decorum? Yes. Did the professor handle this situation in a mature way? No.
Although I can give credit to some of the replies to this post, I think the professor acted poorly. He had the right to be bothered by the students tardiness but where I draw the line is how the professor responded. Most of you took the side of the professor citing his attention to respect and being socially upright. Really? Would you respect that if you were late to a meeting, job interview, doctor’s appointment or any other professional situation that the other person would respond to you by saying, “Get your shit together?” That in itself was disrespectful and not professional at all. He should be held to the same principles as he was placing on the student. I get his point, and yet he could have modeled some decency himself. Also, the anonymous who said that a student is not a customer is incorrect. He or she is paying for a service- thus, a customer.
xxxx? is that you?
you really should get your **** together.
I hate the people that say “the student is not a customer” Yes you damn well are… either your parents are paying for everything or your a damn fool. When you have to start paying that money back you’ll start to realize you were wrong. I agree with what the professor did but don’t tell me we are not a customer. That’s horseshit.
I hate the people that say “the student is not a customer” Yes you damn well are… either your parents are paying for everything or your a damn fool. When you have to start paying that money back you’ll start to realize you were wrong. I agree with what the professor did but don’t tell me we are not a customer. That’s horseshit.
You are clearly as stupid and as entitled as this student. I am a College Graduate and never had to do this. I read what the course was about and decided THEN if it would fit my curriculum. What are you checking? If the teacher is “fun”? If there is a lot of homework? There is nothing to check. You don’t buy a gift certificate to a Broadway musical and try 10 minutes out of a few different ones before deciding which one to stay for for Act 2. The student was rude. And he won’t ever be again.
It’s ok to say the student is the customer as long as you understand 2 things. 1) the customer is not always right. 2) When you choose a college, you are getting a higher education, and that’s exactly what this student got.
If you don’t understand that you are buying an education that prepares you for life in the real world, an education that holds you to a higher level of accountability, then you shouldn’t be wasting your money on that education.
Yes, because someone who is in a business school, and wants to be successful really has an excuse for showing up an hour late. If I were their boss they would be out on the street.
There is no excuse for this. A professor is trying to do their job and this idiot can’t be bothered to show up on time.
Dondura, you do realize that not everyone in my generation acts like that, right?
Maychick, in some of those instances, you will either not have a follow up interview, or lose your job.
Only an entitled idiot like you would side with that selfish xxxx.
@Kiera Knightley — why would you stick up for this behavior unless you were a rich kid yourself. you are unable to understand the situation because you are part of the privileged class. do yourself a favor and keep your ignorant mouth closed.
Sense of entitlement. Get over it. Your generation is doomed.
I agree with you, everyone else here seems to be a dick. sorry, IS a dick. stop being such dicks.
The student is the customer but they aren’t paying to do anything they want. They are paying for an education. And there was a room full of paying customers who’s education was being degraded by one rude student who wasn’t grown up enough to make a decision.
No…you’re the asshole
If I too pay 50,000 then respect me, yea professor!!! KK your an idiot
No, sorry, no amount of tuition $ justifies bad behavior. Manners can be taught, and that student just got a valuable lesson plus some great advice for free.
The student is NOT a customer. The student is earning a degree, not buying one. An MBA program is professional school. The student should act accordingly. Respect not just for a professor, but for one’s peers by not barging in an hour late would seem to be at least a minimum for acceptable behavior.
I’m guessing most of the people in this thread do not work in the professional world. You do realize the types of people who show up an hour late to things are the types of people who become CEOs, CFOs, COOs, etc., right? It’s the people who are hung up on playing by the rules, decorum, and all that who end up stuck in lower-level management for their entire lives, complaining on internet forums on their lunch break. Or even worse, they end up as professors who weren’t good enough to actually work in the professional world.
I’m also guessing most of you supporting the professor never went to graduate or professional school. I did. And if a professor treated me like that, I would be in the Dean’s office over it in a heartbeat. Students pay these people’s bills. If you were an employer and your employee told you to get your shit together, you’d be handing them a cardboard box and telling them to empty their desk. That is completely unacceptable. Undergrad is the place for higher education, humanities, “thinking outside the box” and all that other BS. Professional school is much more simple and to the point: I pay you $100k, $200k, or more, and you teach me the black letter rules that I need to know. Nothing more. If I wanted some professor’s pontification about the proper way to live, respect, family planning, stress management, or whatever else, I’d read their blog. But if I am in your Corporate Taxation class, please teach me just that and let me go on my way.
zzzzzzz,
Show up on time and abide by the rules of classroom decorum, and you can be taught.
How does a student coming in late disrupt the other students or professor? If a student decides to go to the bathroom, would this be different?
Has this student started asking questions that have already been addressed? I just don’t see how merely walking in is disruptive. If you’re a student, if another asks you questions that he/she doesn’t know the answer to because he/she wasn’t paying attention or walked in late – just don’t help the person…
-Student’s email – kind of defensive, said she didn’t know policy – wanted to give her opinion
-Professor’s email – sarcastic. (comparing coming in late to urinating on desks …)
– “get your $hit together” (is profanity part of basic decorum?)
– forwarding of the message to all the other students…
The teaching point had already been made – especially to all the students that stayed, the student was embarrassed and asked to leave and she did. The “being an adult” part works both ways.
Functionally, if it was about “education time” or a “teaching point” and not personal pride (“feeling disrespected”) then wasting one’s own time and the classes with a lengthy email response and other’s by forwarding that message is unnecessary.
When you’re in a meetings and you give a presentation do you think everyone is always completely attentive? If they are not, can you throw them out of the room? (if you significantly outrank them I suppose you can 😉 ). Attentive people will take note of the smartphone users. Now if you forward an email and response where you chastise the person to your entire office, would that be acceptable? Would you receive more backlash for that or checking your email on your smartphone?
Contrary to what many believe, student’s don’t buy their education. They pay for the privilege of earning it. As such, they are beholden to the regulations a professor chooses to set in place to maintain an effective learning environment for all involved. Students waltzing into class late are a distraction to the professor and disruptive to fellow students.
Dondura, if you chose to have multiple families and you supported them, well bully. Frankly I’m not gonna call you a hero for doing what millions of divorced Americans do everyday. Also, your paradigm about students relating to professors like employees to employers is wrong. It’s just wrong. A student showing up to class on time is nothing like an employee showing up to work on time, because while a student is paying the professor, an employee is getting paid by his job. See how that works? No, we shouldn’t treat educators like doormats, but, as any college graduate burdened with loan debt will attest, we expect a lot for our money, and being publicly shamed twice does not factor into our expectations.
On time is on time is on time. You don’t go into a classroom an hour late. It only shows disrepect, a lack of courtesy, and is very unprofessional. Better the student learn this now instead of the real world. If I took him to task for being late to a meeting and got an email like that. I wouldn’t tell him to get his s**t together – I’d fire him.
By the way…what’s this “customer” crap. This is school…it’s NOT, I repeat NOT a mutual partnership. Never was…never will be.
And this is why the Milennials are virtually unemployable.
Tim,
Agreed with you up until the very end there, bud. This IS NOT a generational thing! I’m not a millennial, by the way… Rude and self important individuals have always been around… again, I point to Congress over the past 100 years as a perfect example of this fact.
My kids are good kids… not perfect, but good. I intend to teach them that they are important, but not all important, nor better than anyone else. I will teach them they can lead, they are individuals with ideas, and to be self sufficient… nut I will couple those teachings with ones of kindness for kindness sake and manners. The best compliments my wife and I get are, “what polite kids you have.”
@formerfatboys, YOU are a wonderful example of what is driving this society into the ground. This sense of entitlement that people possess today is unbelievable.
Just curious, does the fact that 30 or more people just equated you with all assholes in general penetrate? Are you inspired to rethink your assumptions? Because if so, XXXX may have a chance as well.
While you’re entitled to your own opinion, I have to disagree. I recently completed my Masters over in London and ALL my lecturers held the same position. No admittance if you are 15 mins late. I guarantee if it was job interview or a business meeting the 15 mins late would not be appreciated either. The lecturer is 100% right.
I agree with this one. The student actually had his sh** together by sampling a class before taking it. College costs $50,000+ per year. Students can’t afford to take the wrong classes. The ivory tower professor, safe in his job and safe in his salary with tenure, doesn’t understand this. He needs to get his sh** together and recognize that students today face incredible financial challenges to attend his classes. He should also understand that his attitude is fine for tenured professors but would get anyone else, at any other job, fired.
See my earlier comments on how to correctly “sample” a class… This 20 minutes here, and there is NOT it! The student is wasting his own time as well as that of the professor and the other students he keeps interrupting by jumping from one lecture hall to the next.
He is a grad student. He totally deserved it.
Paying tuition does not give you the right to disrespect a professor and a whole class of students trying to get on with a lesson. Paying money does not make it okay to suddenly lose your manners. This is what is wrong with the world. Hopefully this student is able to pick up these life lessons at with all that money that is being paid…
Kiera,
As a professor nearing the end of my teaching career, I have over the past 10 years spent many moments – nay hours – wondering when our culture lost a sense of decorum and manners. It’s unconscionable to me that anyone – ANYONE – would find it acceptable to enter a lecture an hour late and to expect such behavior to be totally without consequence.
You state as you first and thus most important factor the cost of education. This entirely ignores the professor’s extensive training and preparation for the course, which is, in your assessment and clearly in that of the offending student’s worldview, less important than your shopping around for a course that you “like.”
Kiera, you speak the language of today, and I fear that this is at the foundation of our culture’s degeneration into one of egoism and selfishness and a total lack of concern for anyone else’s feelings, expectation of respect, or anything else that does not automatically and instantly satisfy the narcissism of the student/individual.
Please note that my comments are also directed at “Academic” below … a moniker with which I take issue.
For students out there siding with this particular student, have fun in the real world when you finish college. You will be confronted with a rude awakening.
Regardless of it being the first day of class or not, walking in and out of a classroom while a professor is in mid-lecture is unacceptable.
Would you simply get up and leave a meeting if your boss were in mid-sentence?
If so, good luck being un-reputable and unemployed.
Professors spend hours planning lectures, grading papers and replying to a sea of emails in addition to valuable time spent in the classroom. It is a highly demanding, high energy occupation, that demands better compensation and more respect from students and society.
Students who think they can be rude, impatient, and always get their way, because they pay tuition (mostly paid by Mom and Dad) have the equation wrong. Here is a wakeup call: Your teachers only owe you the respect you show them, and society cares less that its owes you anything.
Quit your entitled attitudes.
I fully advocate the professor’s response and believe more professors should be able to exercise their perspective on such situations more often.
If you think paying tuition makes you a customer, then do you also consider you were a customer when you were attending high school? Your parent PAYED the tuition for you through direct or indirect property tax. Do you think you had a right to sample classes in high school, or being tardy for an hour on the first day?
You’re immature.
Agree. Thank you.
As a matter of fact, paying tuition does actually entitle you to show up to class whenever you want. Obviously he/she can’t come in and piss on the professor or make a ruckus by dancing on desks, but let’s not take this discussion into the realm of absurdity.
In no other industry would any of you be thinking that it is okay to pay someone substantial amounts of money for a service only to have no say in how you go about receiving that service. If one of you spent $20 on a movie ticket and popcorn and then got to the actual theater 15 minutes late, and an employee told you that you can’t go in to see the movie, sorry go enjoy your popcorn on your drive home… you would flip out! But because it’s a STUDENT (who is paying what amounts to about 1000 movie tickets and 500 buckets of popcorn), he/she loses that prerogative?
This article is a case of a teacher who misunderstands what he has been paid to do, which is teach his damn class, not give life lessons on the importance of being prompt. I pay you to do something, you sure as hell better do it or else you are fired, which happily this student did by dropping Professor Dipshit’s class.
Bull. If a student is that concerned over which class to choose, he or she can make the time to survey those classes the semester before, during the planning process for the following semester. You know – like the professor stated – acting like you have your shit together in your adult life.
If a student is paying $50k then he/she should have much more respect for his/her education. Walking in after an hour is disrespectful, not late, not only of the professor, but of oneself, the university and the parents who are more than likely bankrolling his education. I hate when people assume education is a right, its not, its a privilege. This professor is entirely right to call this student out, until this student learn not to play the blame game, he/she will not go far in life–no one likes a whiner.
This isn’t acceptable anytime, even 6 weeks in when there is more being taught. Most colleges and universities have a few weeks where you can add and drop classes. This means that they could have gone to 1 of the classes each week. If their school didn’t give that much time to do this they could have just spoke to 2 of them and asked about it. This was done in 2010, there are many professors out there now that record their lectures so she could have easily asked for a recording. While you can not see the lecture if it isn’t video, you can still get a good idea on the style of the professor with out it.
I certainly agree that a University is a business that is providing a product, a very expensive product. I get the argument that this student does not have the right to disrupt a class over and above other consumers, and that there are far better and more considerate ways to accomplish the goal, but common the student simply came in late. I’m sure it was more disruptive for the class for the professor to expel the student from the class that it would have been for them to simply walk in and find a seat. During University, this happened all the time and it was never a big deal. Moreover, as many people have pointed out, by emailing this response to the entire class, this professor is exemplifying the same childish behaviour he is attempting to chastise. How hypocritical is it to call someone immature and unprofessional in an email that is immature and unprofessional. Using curse words in a response such as this is about as unprofessional as it gets. As everyone has said, this person was an adult, and as an adult should not be treated as though they were in high school. It’s plain to see that the student doesn’t understand why their behaviour may have been selfish and inconsiderate, but the response by this proff is much much worse.
Dear “Common Sense”,
Apparently you must not exercise much common sense.
Thinking that because one pays tuition entitles them to come and go to class as they please is absurd. The classroom is not a storefront. Many people think that the exorbitant tuition paid by students actually goes to teachers salaries, when in fact, very little does. Most tuition is absorbed by the administration and other research costs and not by teachers. Most institutions highly depend on Adjunct Faculty that are hired for minimal pay with little to no job security.
You need to get your facts straight before you haphazardly draw conclusions.
Bull $hit !! You mean if I pay that much money I can pull my pants down in class?? You evidently are not living in the real world where you must be at work on time and take responsibility for what you do, good or bad.
Are you the guy???
Sorry….you’re tuition gives you access…it doesn’t let you set your own rules! Don’t like it….take your money somewhere else.
Bottom line, if this person would have done this at their job and then emailed the boss to explain in this manner, they would have been fired. People like you give our generation a bad rap.
The student didn’t send a “nice” email. Also paying tuition doesn’t mean you get to make the rules. This behavior is the outcome of a generation of children, who upon reaching maturity, believe they are entitled to everything and the world owes them.
This student (or her Parents) are paying 50K? This is a lesson this entitled brat should have already known for free by the time she gets to grad school! Quit with the excuses, already!
I agree with you. Thank you for posting the minority view.
I think the teacher threw an email tantrum. He should take his own advice.
@zzzzz and ReplytoDondura
zzzzzz-
Totally right about get to the point and get it done. But when the CEO, CFO, whatever was a student, employee, or lower level management (I’m assuming they didn’t start as a CEO) they sure as hell showed up on time. And if they didn’t, they got their A-S-S chewed if their boss was worth a damn.
Reply to Dondura-
I think the point Dondura was making is that our generation (I am assuming you are in your 20’s or early 30’s and in a similar age bracket as myself) has a huge sense of entitlement and an inability or lack of interest in performing what she/the previous generation would consider very basic tasks. While we’re much better with technology we’re really not that good at electronics (electronics meaning light switches, circuit boards, etc.), mechanics or other basic skills one might find useful in repairing or maintaining their own property. We tend to delegate that to others while we pursue the more refined skills of law, consulting, business, etc. As a member of this current generation which has been deemed entitled and whinny I tend to agree with our predecessors’ opinion of us. It was not until my mid-late 20’s that I realized, “Shit, I might want to know how to fix a light switch or where my car’s alternator is.” Most people in our generation still have no clue. They do tend to make great lawyers, computer engineers, or consultants though. We’ve really overspecialized. Part our fault and part our parent’s generation’s fault. Either way, I am pretty sure was Dondura’s point.
Let’s change this situation a bit. Does buying a movie ticket entitle you to disrupt a theatre full of people? Yes, you are the customer, and yes, you paid an exorbitant price to sit in a dark room with other people, but does this mean you are allowed to break the accepted social norms of the situation? If an usher asked you to stop talking on your cell or stop standing in the aisle, would you tell him that you paid for the ticket, and you’ll act anyway way you damn well want? If he responded by forcing you to leave the theatre to preserve the experience for the other movie goers, would he be justified?
Look kid, this is real life. You don’t get a blue ribbon or a star for showing up at work on time. You don’t get an “adda-boy” for wearing a suit to a meeting with your client. There is no hot dog and soda waiting for you after blowing the $100k deal. In the real world, something the Millennials have NO IDEA about, there are things called “consequences”. This is a concept that will blow your mind and make you bring your mommy to your next job interview… wait… didn’t you guys already start doing that?
This student is an asshole. I commend this professor for the clarity, precision, and generosity of his critique.
Your statement indicates that by paying NYU’s tuition, this student is thereby entitled to act however he/she pleases within the structure of the university and its operations.
I don’t care if it’s a lecture at NYU or a children’s story hour at the public library. Do not enter in the middle of something that others have committed their undivided time and attention to, and then act as though you’ve been wronged when you were called out for being rude.
I repeat: you are insisting that this student was entitled to do so. Entitlement. An ugly attitude in this world that I would like to see disappear.
You are aware that every other student whose education was interrupted by this person is paying the same amount, right?
I wish I had more assholes in my life. We all need people to tell us in whatever way reaches us that we’ve messed up. Seriously, I’m sure the whole incident wouldn’t have been nearly as a big of a deal if this student (who isn’t taking his class anyway) had just let it go. If the student was taking his class, I would have understood the student’s desire to make amends. This one, however, basically told the instructor that the letter had no point except to tell him that his way was wrong. I think this student got a valuable lesson without paying for it from this instructor.
I’d stop pulling your ears and blowing hard like that. You might burst the two remaining brain cells in that vast cavernous space between them.
Actually, your statement is counter intuitive. If I was paying $50k a year as an MBA candidate, I would be putting every ounce of ‘Give a Damn’, into my education.
Seriously? Shopping for a class(or Professor) you like, again, defeats the whole purpose of a Graduate Program. Especially in Business! When play time is over and you hit the pavement in the REAL WORLD, you’d damn well better have the experience and know how, to deal with people who you don’t like!
Just another millennial that thinks the world needs to make accommodations for them.
@Elle Jay
I think you hit the nail on the head right here:
“the whole incident wouldn’t have been nearly as a big of a deal if this student (who isn’t taking his class anyway) had just let it go”
The end of it should have been when the student left the class. Often it is just better to let things go. This does extend to the professor too, who perhaps could have just let the student think whatever they like about how their email was received, rather than retaliate. The private reply was one thing, but forwarding to other students was unprofessional. Again, with workplace analogies, when somebody is fired or chastised for inappropriate behaviour, they don’t announce it on the PA to the entire office or store. It is handled quietly with a certain level of respect for the party being chastised. They have made a mistake, and deserve a chance perhaps to
Also, we can’t know that this is how the student behaves regularly.
Aside from that,
Enough information is available to know what a class is about before signing up, so the only reason I can see for “shopping” is to see how one likes the professor, which is just not a good way to go about choosing your classes. I understand the effect the professor may have on a student’s ability to learn, but there aren’t many horrible professors out there. You might not like all of them, but similarly to any institution or workplace, you will learn to get along well enough to get by and not piss people off. For those odd professors who ARE actually horrible and do not teach well, that is what the professor evaluations are for. There seems to be a lot of back and forth about whether or not this “shopping” practice is tolerated at different institutions, but I can certainly imagine better ways to choose your classes, regardless of whether or not shopping is allowed. Even so, many lectures run multiple times a week, depending on class sizes, and by talking to your peers, you can usually find a way to make them all in the first week without having to jump from class to class in the same class period.
It’s called etiquette. And if she wanted to shop around for her classes, then why not email the prof in advance? It’s plain rude and disruptive to everyone. You obviously have never taught a day in your life so you have no experience to make the comment about the prof, who is 100% correct in teaching a life lesson to all of us.
Why don’t we all agree that both of them acted like jackasses? Then we can all stop arguing on the internet and get back to our lives.
would you like the professor to rub your belly, feed you cake and telling you how you smart you are while at it? if you are paying 50k a year you better get your shit together
Both the student and the professor were in the wrong with this.
The student should have never showed up late to the first class, felt entitled enough to shop around, or pursued the disagreement after being asked to leave. This is immaturity.
The professor should never have childishly lowered himself to the student’s level by sending an email out of damaged pride, and most definitely should not have forwarded a private conversation to the rest of the entire class. This is unprofessionalism.
BOTH parties acted wrongly in this situation, and neither of them should be congratulated for what they did. This has devolved into nothing more than a war of the generations, where each side is blindly defending what they believe to be right based upon the world they grew up in.
Everyone in this thread needs to take a deep breath and look at the situation from an outside perspective. The disagreement was handled poorly on both sides of the gap. End of story.
I agree, professor needs to be understanding of his students life situation.
Sometimes students have other responsibilities (kids, family, work) and this professor’s response is childish and unwarranted.
I have been to many courses which I should have been refunded. Shopping around for a course is completely legitimate as some courses and professors are horrible.
That being said, i think the 15 min rule is unreasonable. How disruptive is it really?
The student can certainly do such thing and it happens all over the place in colleges thru out the US. However, if you read that email he sent, it’s rather complaining or accusing the professor of making rude action to the student himself. I mean that’s really the message the student sends to the professor saying that 1. student’s actions were all reasonable, 2. the professor’s rude remarks has bothered him. on top of that if he decided not to take the course he could’ve just kept shut but really went that far to accuse the professor. i gotta admit the student needs to show more sense of humility. (when you’re in college, you’re a fucking baby and really have no idea of the real world..)
No the professor is not wrong – the student is disrespectful. If one really wants to know which course to take they should contact the professor to get an essence of the class. Students today can be so rude and disrespectful of not only professor but the other students. Good for the professor for taking the time to attempt to teach the student “something” even it the student is no long welcome in the class.
You should get your shit together.
Please stop feeding the trolls people.
@stifledgenius: this guy’s too eloquent to be a troll. Trolls may be detailed, but they’re never that eloquent.
@this guy: What a cute little world you live in where you can pay someone for the right amount of money just so you can show you see that person’s passion merely as a shopping option, and not so much as a potential career.
Money doesn’t solve everything, little man. You need to wake up.
A word of advice from a college instructor: you CAN email the professor of classes in which you MIGHT be interested and ASK for a SYLLABUS before the class starts. Then you might be able to make these decisions ahead of time and (BONUS) learn about class policies regarding late entry.
Some of you suggest that the professor asking the student to leave was more disruptive to the class than the student entering late. What you are not taking into account is the fact that publicly asking students to leave sends a strong message to all of the students sitting there that the behavior will not being tolerated. Although it was may have been more disruptive that one time, it deters other students from doing the same thing, therefore producing an overall net reduction in distractions associated with tardiness.
The student is indeed the customer. And the professor closed his “store” at class-fifteen. Sorry, xxxx. LOL
I agree in part. As a student who pays $5,000 every ten weeks to my institution, I should have some leeway to do whatever the hell I want. However, as a student who pays $5,000 every ten weeks to my institution, I should also not have to be interrupted in the middle of lecture by people who want to come and go as they please just so they can sample the classes. There are better ways to find out which class you want to take, like emailing professors, T.A.’s, or perhaps reading those class descriptions that are put there for a fucking reason.
Just because the student is paying a tuition fee does not mean they deserve special treatment or can be completely disrespectful to the rest of the class or the professor. I got to university in Scotland and the students that are from here go for free, but i have to pay nearly £20k a year in tuition as an international student. I for one do not expect any leeway in school policy for me over the British students. Just this past exam period I missed out on an email updating our practical exam schedule which I was late for and not allowed to take. Because of this I now have to resit both exams for the subject (luckily for me we are allowed to resit if needed), not just the 1 I did not take. I went into the office at school to plead my case and explain that I never saw or even knew about the e-mail (even classmates never mentioned it, not that it is there fault as it’s completely mine). I was told that I have to resit both exams and that is University policy. Did I write an unapologetic e-mail blaming the university for not personally contacting me and making sure I knew about the change? Did I try and pass it off as “Oh well I just thought I could show up and take it whenever, does it really matter when I show up?” No, I took responsibility for my own problem and started preparing for the future which is what this student should have done.
Besides, it’s (un)common sense that showing up an hour late to ANYTHING is unacceptable.
Die in a fire.
That is all.
Besides the fact that the student acted wildly inappropriately, what he or she did is technically illegal. You cannot attend a class that you are not registered for. Doing so is receiving a good (the content of the class) without paying for it. Although some places may let class sampling slide, this student *wasn’t* paying his salary. Even if we set aside the horrendous, consumerist view that you and many espouse, this student was not in the right.
I understand the shopping around for classes. Even grad school students do that they can get the biggest bang for their buck. But tact and respect are key. The drop/add period usually consists of the first two weeks of the semester. Rather than both annoying profs and limiting oneself to a mere 20 minute snapshot as the basis for a decision, sit for class A in week 1, class B in week 2, talk to someone/read the syllabus for class C and then make a decision. That this student also emailed the prof for a class he had already decided to drop just to say his feelings were hurt (i.e. pointless) was just asking for it.
I don’t agree at all. That professor sounds like a huge dick. Students should feel free to check out their options during the first week, because it is important for students to take classes that are useful to them and that interest them. I don’t know about NYU, but every department I’ve worked in has always told us not to count attendance/lateness during the first week, to give students the flexibility they need to make scheduling decisions.
Since there is no sign the student was being particularly disruptive other than simply entering the classroom, and since he/she sent a very polite explanation/apology, I feel like the professor’s reply is way out of order. And since the great majority of professors does not have a policy stating you can no longer enter after 15 minutes (particularly during the first week), it’s pretty arrogant of him to just assume students will somehow be able to divine that he has certain unusual policies. Exactly the kind of self-absorbed, condescending attitude I hope I will always be able to avoid as a professor.
I hope you have just as many students as I did last semester try to start seriously taking your class a week or more into the semester. It’s not condescending for a professor to assume that he or she will be teaching his or her entire class the same material at the same time (a.k.a. to assume that everyone who wishes to be enrolled in the course actually attends all scheduled classes).
Just because a student can’t get his or her sh*t together at the beginning of the semester is no reason for the professor to have to personally catch him or her up on the material missed. The first two weeks of class are NOT bullsh*t, they are 2 out of the 13 weeks of the semester. That’s slightly over 15% of the course. Either be in the class and show up, or don’t be in the class.
Entering the class AN HOUR late? you’re just gonna go in not knowing what everyone is talking about. Not a good time to see if the class is right for you, I’d say.
I think the point is that manners costs nothing, if you are going to be late for any reason it is polite to get in touch ahead of time. The reply was a wake up call to the student, and politely put at that.
‘That professor sounds like a huge dick’ makes me suspect it will be some time before you could expect to call yourself one, if at all. Started lecturing/tutoring very recently perhaps?
I completely disagree with you. I’m currently a college student, and the first week or two of the semester are usually incredibly important. This is a college, and when professors are expected to teach you everything about a subject that you will need for the rest of your life in two 75 minute long lectures for about a dozen weeks, then those professors will start teaching on day one. I pay a lot of money for my education, and if my professors treated the first 4 classes as a joke, I would feel ripped off. Also, allowing students 5 or 10 minutes to be late during the first week is understandable, an hour is ridiculous! There are no professors in my college who would tolerate you being that late to the class. It is disrespectful to the professor teaching the class, the students who are there to actually learn, and to yourself, who is wasting the money you’re spending on your education
I hope you are a cheese lover because you certainly have plenty of whine. Grow up and act like an adult. My god we are becoming a whiney pampered nation. Research before taking a class. You dont learn anything about a class on “the first day” to make an informed decision. Talk to G.A.s, go to ratemyprofessor, research online.
What that student sent was not in any possible way an apology. It was the thinly veiled bitching of an entitled crybaby. Take your lumps and move on.
Not sure what college you’re working for, but your students must have you by the balls. You guys don’t count attendance the first week?? That exactly what the prof was addressing in his response. This generation of students is being taught that the world will cater to their desires only by whining about it, and not actually working for it. Your school’s policies play into that mentality by coddling them, but does nothing to prepare them for the level of accountability and planning that the real world demands. I’m not angry with you, I’m just telling like it is. I would recommend your administration do a better job of planning curriculum for your students and preparing them for college life. When I was teaching college, our orientation made damn sure that students knew what was expected of them. There was no need to “shop” for classes.
I would venture to say that the prof probably covered class tardy/absent procedures somewhere in the first few moments of the class, but xxxx wouldnt have known them for the next class period either because they were an hour late. Trust me, most all of the professors I had in college would have told them to get their shit together IN THE CLASS, in front of everyone, not in some email. Several of my professors even went as far as locking the door at the time the class started. This taught you TO BE ON TIME. It is called being responsible.
The policy is hardly unusual, and nothing prevented the student from emailing the professor in advance to inquire as to whether his plan was acceptable.
Most classes put out a syllabus before the first day class. If the student had bothered to review it, they would have been aware of the attendance policy.
I went to NYU, so, forgive me if I come across as speaking the gospel here. Fact is, ‘academic’ institution or not, NYU is, first and foremost, a BUSINESS. It’s a corporation that happens to award degrees. The student had every right to do what he did, because above and beyond the teacher-student paradigm, he was also a paying customer. That may offend some of you, but at $60,000 a year and rising, that’s how we view the system at NYU, because NYU is just not like other schools. The student’s behavior might have been inappropriate elsewhere, but I can confidently say that at NYU, it was actually pretty commonplace and quotidien. Also, the professor tipped his hand when he said that the student would by now be regretting his decision to send a discreet email. There was simply no educational value in publicly shaming this student by emailing his reply to the whole class. The student very much played by the rules when he sent the professor a private note, because HEAVEN FORBID the student should have called out the professor in public. But then the professor turned around, violated the confidential trust of their relationship and played dirty humiliation tactics. I mean, c’mon, what if the kid had come back after the class to approach the professor with his reasons, and then the professor shouted at him at the top of his lungs so all the students exiting the class could hear? Because that’s effectively what the professor did, and it was just plain UNPROFESSIONAL.
If you’re a student, how is it disrespectful to you if another student enters class late? I can see how it’s disruptive to the professor but even that is fairly minimal.
And not taking attendance is fairly standard at places where I’ve lectured (mostly large public schools). Past a certain class size it’s not really practical. (I believe 80 is the class size here for this MBA level course)
I’m a bit surprised by the responses. I know some faculty that have those specific class rules (no admission if past N minutes late without a documented/valid excuse), but most do not. I think kicking out the student in that scenario is fine. Make your point to the rest of the class. And I agree that the student’s email was not an apology at all. But as faculty, what are you accomplishing by responding with a far worse email AND forwarding it to the students? Are you teaching her respect, by disrespecting her and passing that message to all your other students?
There is this amazing thing known as the class description that is usually available when you register for classes. Also, registration is typically well in advance of the actual classes, so there’s more than enough time to speak with your academic advisor and discuss options. In other words, there are much better (and proactive) ways to get information if it’s about the content and applicability of a course.
Now, on the other hand, if you’re trying to figure out which class would be the easiest to pass with a high grade with minimal effort…well, then perhaps XXXX’s method makes sense…
Dear Academic,
Your response as a professor is an attitude that disintegrates the role of respect a professor should be given by students. Certain students need to be told to get their shit together. Also, let us not forget it was a graduate student.
I personally don’t care if the student sent a nice email apologizing. That does not cut it. Would you send your dean a letter if you acted the same way? Certainly not. You would be looking for a new job.
Students today are increasingly impatient, lacking manners and self-sufficiency, and folding to their apologies and excuses enables them to think their actions are satisfactory.
Many times, the best thing you can do as a professor is allow your students to fail and learn from their mistakes.
As a professor myself, I am not looking for students to bow to my feet, but I also realize that part of my role is to make them responsible adults.
NYU student feeling a sense of entitlement? As a New Yorker who frequents the West Village, I’m not surprised.
“I feel like the professor’s reply is way out of order. And since the great majority of professors does not have a policy stating you can no longer enter after 15 minutes (particularly during the first week), it’s pretty arrogant of him to just assume students will somehow be able to divine that he has certain unusual policies. Exactly the kind of self-absorbed, condescending attitude I hope I will always be able to avoid as a professor.”
That is the worse attitude ever. If an individual junior to you in both, or either, age and status (and you are junior in status if you are a student to the teacher or professor) disrespects you in such a manner I would hope you would rectify them of such behavior. You are not suppose to be this person’s friend but their leader, mentor and teacher. It is education such as the kind you are proposing that would leave the up and coming generation disrespectful, naive and disadvantaged. Being late by one hour is never acceptable unless you are the boss and even then I’m sure your upper management would have something to say about it.
It sounds like you are a professor yourself. I hope you have enough respect for yourself to not tolerate this kind of behavior in your classroom. If not, well that explains how this kid made it to graduate school.
If you want to go to a top ranked B-school, you need to do your research BEFORE attending a class. I highly doubt this happens at the Harvard or Stanford graduate business schools.
Graduate MBA students can easily find out the quality of a course by talking to their cohorts or scheduling a 15 minute coffee chat with the instructor.
The professor did that student a favor and gave her a reality check. It really seemed like she didn’t know what she was doing. In essence she 1) Did not know how to do research, 2) Could not make a decision at the right time.
You know those executives who jump meeting to meeting, but never get anything done? Yeah, she was on her way to becoming one.
…get your shit together!
I am copying this from a comment I left in the previous thread:
A word of advice from a college instructor: you CAN email the professor of classes in which you MIGHT be interested and ASK for a SYLLABUS before the class starts. Then you might be able to make these decisions ahead of time and (BONUS) learn about class policies regarding late entry.
Though the sentiments of the professor are understandable, I think it was a condescending, very arrogant and unnecessarily humiliating response. The fact that he sent it to his class indicates this as well. He clearly enjoyed writing this and wanted to show the other students what a cool professor he is, which feels very inappropriate to me. There was a kind way to make the same point. Professors are supposed to be more mature than their students.
Wrong… teachers are supposed to TEACH their students, which when this person entered the Teacher’s classroom became that Teacher’s student. And seriously, if you think this email was unkind… well, maybe you live in the same fantasy world as the student who walked in late. And it seems you do since you so plainly put in extraneous motivations that cannot possibly be read into by the email alone. And speaking of condescending… of course the student was not condescending to the professor at all was he? And in case you’re still in your fantasy world, yes that last question was rhetorical and sarcasm was intended.
So to the idiot who walked in an hour late and to those who have taken that student’s side: when a teacher offers you some free advice, take it. Don’t complain about paying for an education when you can’t even appreciate education given to you freely.
A professor is a mentor. A student who thinks that the professor’s time is not more valuable than the student’s NEEDS to be knocked down a peg or three. Furthermore, a business student must understand the importance of impressions and respectful behavior. Behaving professionally is just as important as any lesson he will learn in his MBA courses.
Professors ‘call the shots’ concerning student’s discipline, or lack of. The core of graduate work is the discipline involved – self discipline exactly. Student xxx had neither the discipline nor desire to ask permission of professors to drop in and out of first day classes (naturally the answer would be a big NO, so this student admitted to being a discipline problem on the loose in the email). At the graduate level, this kind of behavior is excessively naive and has no redeeming qualities.
It’s not as if the student is a victim here. If he can’t recover from this licking he took in email form, then he probably shouldn’t be getting into the business world. However, if he can take it in stride and learn from his misstep, he can come out stronger and more professional, which is the intention of the professor. The professor has his own accountability to worry about, and that is to prepare his students for life in the real world. And that is what he delivered. It is now up to the student to choose what he will do with this lesson.
Being a teacher and having experienced a massive problem with students showing up late or not at all, I can totally understand this professor sending this email out to all his students. It wasn’t to show off, it was to show his students how seriously he took attendance and that he expected everyone to show up on time and ready to learn.
Wow. What a completely ignorant and reactionary response. The prof. was eloquent and at the same time educational in his response. Sounds like you’ll make a good consultant. Asshat.
Yes, as Anonymous states, teachers are there to TEACH THEIR STUDENTS.
This has absolutely nothing to do with maturity.
What the teacher did is not immature.
“Aqw”, do you actually think the world is a nice, cushy place? If so, you are entirely out of touch with reality.
Perhaps with the exception of medical school, professional (business/law) schools are a joke. You are not there to learn. You are simply there to go through the motions, network, get a piece of paper for which you pay $150,000 to $250,000 (provided you are at an top program), get a job that will give you the ability to pay off that debt, and maybe one day give you the “in” to establish a career that you actually enjoy doing. This student is going for his MBA. He/she is not a Ph.D. student who is trying to become a scholar, and is probably not under an all expenses paid fellowship.
Has any one here ever taken a class in an MBA or law program? There is no substance. A monkey can self teach themselves that garbage. That professor can kiss my ass. He/she is simply a means to an end and should know his/her place.
Humility definitely has its place in the real world, i.e., within one’s professional and personal affairs. Humility has no place in a competitive, overpriced joke of an quasi-educational institution that is only set up to take students money in simple return for a job. As far as I am concerned, if you sign up to teach in a sham institution like Stern, Sloan, HBS, etc. and expect to be treated like a decorated scholar, you have something else coming to you. Because guess what, you are not a scholar! Surprise!
That said, the student should have probably bitten his tongue and let it go. No sense of getting rattled over some inconsequential minutia.
Wow, I’m glad that someone here has been through all the graduate programs offered in the nation! It’s great to hear this well-informed opinion about the diverse options out there for hopeful professionals. Until you have gone through multiple MBA programs, you can’t pass such a blanket judgment. I know my grad program was worth it.
This professor had every right to say what he said. Students should absolutely have agency in their education, but agency is NOT permission to be disrespectful. What really got me is the professor’s observation that xxxx was implying that he had walked into a classroom twenty minutes late and promptly walked out again twenty minutes later. That is profoundly rude and disruptive.
Your sarcasm is not impressive. I don’t have to have “been through all the graduate programs offered in the nation,” to understand that they are a means to an end. Quite frankly, the only graduate professionals programs worth anything in the nation come either from the Ivy league, or other top level schools (Stanford, MIT, Mich, NYU, UC Berkeley, etc.), and there aren’t many of them (by worth anything, I mean that if you aren’t going to a top program, your job prospects and the odds of you making your money back in reasonable amount of time are stacked against you). Also, pick up any newspaper, Washpost, Wallstreet Journal, etc. and you will find many “well-informed” articles written not only by Professors, but Professional who assert that professional programs are a joke, and pretty much serve as a means to an end of getting a job.
What you subjectively garnered from your MBA program is your own business, and if you had a positive experience then kudos to you. But us realists out there are only concerned about seeing payback on our investments, because that is what going to professional school is supposed to be, an investment. If you want to learn as an end in itself then you don’t belong in a professional school, you belong in a Ph.D. program.
By the way, anyone who considers themselves a “hopeful professional” is an idiot. There should be no hope in professional fields, only well thought-out strategic decisions. This connects with my last point, because anyone out there who is willing to gamble a $150,000-$250,000 debt with only a hope of becoming a professional really needs to rethink the game of life.
…says the guy who didn’t get accepted to Sloan, Stern, HBS, etc.
…says the guy who didn’t get accepted to Stern, Sloan, HBS, etc.
“By the way, anyone who considers themselves a “hopeful professional” is an idiot. There should be no hope in professional fields, only well thought-out strategic decisions.”
So you would agree that the student did not have a good strategy? Would you agree that in the real world he would have received a much greater thrashing and penalty than he got in this exchange?
This guy gets it. Business school is a circle-jerk.
You obviously haven’t been to a top business school. “Sham institution?” I just pissed myself laughing. The bottom 10% of students at these schools are likely more intelligent and insightful than you ever thought about being. Save the diatribes for schools that you could actually get into.
So let me get this straight. You’re trying to tell me that this excuses what the student did?
Looks like someone didn’t get accepted…LOL…
“That professor can kiss my ass. He/she is simply a means to an end and should know his/her place. ”
FYI, Michael, Stern IS NYU…
I only took one semester of law school (before realizing it wasn’t for me and I no longer wanted to waste my time/money), but I learned a helluva lot and took it very seriously. Probably the most educational four months of my life. You’re, um, wrong.
I feel badly that you must have attended such a bad graduate school. I learned some incredible things in my MBA program…and the job and pay that followed required hard work and intelligent application of those.
First of all you clearly are upset that you weren’t accepted by any of those programs. Second, you named NYU as a top level school, and as such is one of the few with a worthwhile professional degree program, yet you said this professor (who is at Stern, the business school of NYU) was a joke, or “a means to an end” completely disintegrating your sad attempt to downplay the value of education here. And finally, professional school is not merely a means to an end. It comprehensively pulls together everything relevant you’ve previously learned in undergrad (and things you haven’t learned as well), and teaches you to apply it to the everyday situations you will be faced with once you graduate and start working. I go to veterinary school and to be honest I was SO tired of going over physiology again and animal husbandry, but in this past year we pulled all of that together and learned how to apply it diagnoses and treatment of issues. If i didn’t learn to look at stacking numbers, height of the roof of a byre, the type of ventilation used (wether passive or facilitated) would all factor into the epidemiology of specific diseases in a herd of dairy cattle? That is all animal husbandry garbage (or so i thought) that I couldn’t possibly care any less about until learning that it may be the cheapest and easiest way for a farmer to care for his herd? Also, if I went purely academic with this line of thinking, would I even consider finances as a potential hinderance for treatment? No, I probably wouldn’t because my head would tell me “CURE CURE CURE!!!” which would get pretty expensive and help neither the farmer (who can’t or won’t pay) nor me (who won’t get paid). Professional schools teach you to look at all sides of a problem so you can come up with the most efficient/elegant response.
Oh please, all of those defending NYU and this professor either don’t/didn’t go there or are okay with pissing money away. NYU is ridicuously overpriced and students now pay 60K (not 50, 60!) to attend this semi-prestigious school.
You know what? These professors do work for students. They are not union employees at NYU. They are at-will. These students pay their salary, they pay for the campus in China and Abu Dhabi, they pay through the nose to get to be a “Stern Grad.”
From personal experience, these students are entitled and spoiled. But so are these professors (have you seen the chronicle of higher education and that the average tenured faculty member makes more at NYU than Columbia? Think about that for a second).
She had an honest answer. She was shopping for classes. You know what happens if you don’t register for these courses is you get boxed out and have to wait SEMESTERS to complete course requirements.
I have no respect for a professor that could have easily turned the other cheek or have let her know “My policy is to refuse entry to those that are more than 15 minutes late. Respect this.” And ended it this way. I would not want to be part of his class if this is his regular behavior.
Let’s not make uninformed claims– NYU Abu Dhabi is totally and completely funded by the Abu Dhabi government. In fact the Abu Dhabi government has given NYU New York tons of money. 50 million dollars was just the initial gift.
You are speaking in major sweeping generalities. See my comment above about students being customers. They aren’t paying for the education they think they need, they are paying for the education that their chosen institution says they need, which includes spankings like the one received by this student.
When I was a young professor, I tried to be the cool guy. It worked for a while, until I had some students who thought they were my friends, and could come and go as they pleased and ask me for favors on their grades. I had other students, “good students,” come to me and request that I do something about their misbehaving classmates. That’s what happens when students are not held to account.
This prof sounds more experienced than I was when I started, and knew exactly how to hold students to account and reset any unrealistic expectations. There are some conversations I had to have with students that were not fun at all, but I would not have been doing them any favors by being nice to them. Being ‘nice’ is the kiss of death.
I can’t speak for NYU or any other expensive colleges since I did my grad work at a state school. There are quite a few experts on the subject of how crappy and deceptive they are on this message board, so I will have to ultimately defer to them. Having worked in higher ed, I know that it takes something to teach, and people don’t do it for the paycheck. While the institution itself may have it’s moral shortcomings, my experience of professors is that they are (and I generalize) very caring, tough loving, big-hearted SOB’s who are absolutely committed to their students’ success. If that means calling them out on their ill-fated plans of “shopping” classes, then that’s what it takes.
I’ll close with this. Before you go passing judgement on a professor, consider his or her personal commitment to each student on campus, whether or not they ever take his/her class. It’s that commitment that is the difference between a prof who will correct your papers, and one from whom you will actually learn something.
“These students pay their salary.” And, as such, have every right to expect a professor to maintain an environment compatible with effective education – which includes not tolerating self-centred dumbasses who wander in an hour late thinking that they have every right to disrupt the teaching of their fellow classmates as a matter of convenience. The professor was well within his bounds to toss the student out – and well within his bounds to respond to her e-mail as he did.
I attended NYU as an undergraduate, and I agree with the professor. I agree with you that NYU is overpriced, but that’s not the issue at hand. A professor is not there to give everyone an A and kiss asses just because the students are paying for the experience. When a university awards an individual a diploma, the university is acknowledging that it feels this individual has attained a sufficient mastery of the subject. It tells potential employers that the individual is competent. I am a graduate student teaching assistant in mathematics at another large research university. Do you want people who fail to understand calculus to build the bridges you drive on? If professors cowtowed to their students, lots of idiots would get As in calculus, receive engineering degrees, and then build bridges that collapse and kill hundreds of people. This is why the student is not the customer who is also “Always Right”. (I understand that this article addresses the issue of disrespect, not intellectual incompetence, but when it comes to the idea of professors “working for the students” they go hand in hand. Just trying to make a point.)
As a college professor, my school does not allow students to be in class if they are not on the official roster, even if they are “shopping”. Not on my list, then you have to leave. Are you suppose to be on it? Then go to the registrar and get it figured out, here is a syllabus to look at while they fight with the computer. Simple as that. It means you get students coming to you during advisement to see what the class is about or talking to previous class members. It makes the first week of class much more efficient (less swapping) and you do start your lectures on the first day, not after the first week!
Exactly. If your advising staff is up to snuff, shopping shouldn’t be a problem in the first place.
“Political correctness” is a term invented by the right wing to cast “respectful behavior for your fellow humans” as something negative, because it doesn’t further the republican agenda.
Oh…. GOD….
love political BS. “political correctness” is a way of “politely” telling someone else the way they think or act is wrong… Democrats and Republicans both exercise this futile white wash. My main question (excuse me for getting off the professor student subject here) is when did we lose our democracy and become a solid two party system in this country. Look at all “third” party candidates over the past 50 years. They are given no advertising time, no media access and treated like an insane uncle that needs to be locked in the attic when guests arrive.
Want to fix the country? Wipe out this idea that Democrats or Republicans have all the answers and get behind a neighbor you know to be a good, honest person. Fill Congress, the Senate and the White House with these kinds of people and see what changes! Filling only one or two seats won’t do it. There needs to be major change across the board with out any single party being given a majority, and then told by the public… “do your job or you will be replaced just as we did with the two useless parties we had.”
I understand what the professor did, but I think his own response was outlandish and unprofessional. My biggest dilemma with this story is that many graduate and even college courses do not require professors to publish a syllabus prior to a class commencing. How is a student supposed to understand if he is interested in the course structure, requirements and projects? This essentially eliminates a huge decision making component in the post secondary education system. If students made as big a deal about this type of rude behavior that many professors neglect to address, then there could be written a hundreds of stories online each semester.
Even if it isn’t “published” online, their email address is certainly available. I have never had a problem, as a student or instructor, in either receiving or providing a syllabus requested this way.
Actually, he’s an ass at a public college in the USA. This student has every right to sample the lectures that this supposed professional is offering. Now, as a paying student, I would want to get the most and best lectures out of my money. Is it that hard to comprehend as a college professor to realize this. It shouldn’t according to the essay he wrote to the student, who in his own words was extending a salute of decency. If he didn’t do anything that woudl have been rude. But, he extended the branch of diplomacy and all the professor did was shit on him. He’s not getting paid for that student coming to his class, which is how he gets paid. Great job, professor. What a tool.
I agree with LR McLellan below. Why do people need to be coddled and spoon-fed everything? Do some work for yourself for once? In my undergrad I was busy looking up professors on ratemyprof.com (or whatever it’s called… it’s been a few years) as well as emailing a professor about the class if I didn’t know someone who had already taken it and asked them. It’s really not that hard and doesn’t take more than 10-15 minutes to complete (and since it’s before classes start, you have all the free time in the world).
And what are you thinking? “If he didn’t do anything that would have been rude”? Seriously? I doubt the professor would have even given it a second thought until the student felt entitled enough to send his e-mail, trying to pass blame onto the professor because (s)he showed up an hour late (besides, give me 1 example where it is perfectly acceptable to show up an hour late to something… and I don’t mean fashionably late to a party… i mean to a REAL scheduled event). And that email was far from a branch of diplomacy for the reason i just stated. It was the student trying hard to trump the teacher for pointing out how wrong they were.
Also, the professor does not get paid for that student coming to class. He gets paid for teaching. One student deciding not to take a class does not get that teacher fired or lower their salary. Uncommon sense is what it’s all about.
Our “brightest and best” students are so lazy and used to being spoon fed and having their diapers changed, they are stunned when they meet reality. I have barred students who are late. I have dismissed those who choose to talk in class and asked them not to return. I have done similar things with employees who did not appreciate their employment and respect their fellow workers/classmates. Mama and Daddy are not here to intervene for you. Get your s**t together or get out!! My motto exactly.
Let’s change this situation a bit. Does buying a movie ticket entitle you to disrupt a theatre full of people? Yes, you are the customer, and yes, you paid an exorbitant price to sit in a dark room with other people, but does this mean you are allowed to break the accepted social norms of the situation? If an usher asked you to stop talking on your cell or stop standing in the aisle, would you tell him that you paid for the ticket, and you’ll act anyway way you damn well want? If he responded by forcing you to leave the theatre to preserve the experience for the other movie goers, would he be justified?
This is great! So many young people have this sense entitlement these days. They feel they can do whatever they want, without consequence. They feel they are owed something in life without, ever having worked for anything. Prof. Galloway is right on the money with his reply. The student should have at least gone to each of the professors, whose classes he/she wanted to sit in on, and asked if it would be alright to do so. For those of you out there that think the professor used harsh words, or foul language, then you haven’t been in a classroom in a long time. Things have changed quite a bit. Sometimes the best way to get through to students, especially college students on the verge of being in the real world, is to be straight forward, blunt, and yes “real” with them.
Now I don’t agree with the student at all in this situation but I just hope you realise this Jose, not only young people have a sense of entitlement and I’m pretty tired of people pegging everyone young as naive, rude and expectant of special treatment. We are not all like that. As a matter of fact I have a few professors at my school who feel they are completely entitled to belittle students as they please… yes Martin Sullivan, I’m talking about you.
typical business school professors…absolutely NO humility. If someone is paying 100k for an education they have every right to walk into a class and stay there. If it is a re-occuring situation I understand, but it shouldn’t be acceptable to kick students out for tardiness on the first day of classes. And this professor should learn how to have some humility and respect and not think he owns the world…advice to ALL business school professors w/ ultra- I am God ego’s.
hahaha some of these comments are hilarious and a bit “sad”. Here are the facts people so listen please I’ll walk you through it….1 )The student is paying for his/her education, so to make it simple for you to understand…you pay for a service, a teacher to teach you so that you can learn. I will pay you X amount of dollars to teach me about “something” YOU DON’T HAVE A PRIVILEDGE TO TAKE THE CLASS BECAUSE YOU PAYED FOR IT. ITS A BUSINESS NOT A PRIVILEGE, IF I PAY FOR SOMETHING AND YOU TELL ME TO GET OUT AND DON’T PROVIDE THAT SERVICE THEN YOU ARE IN THE WRONG. To help this teacher out…next time, don’t even acknowledge the student who enters late, if it continues confront them, THE TEACHER IS WORKING FOR YOU, NOT TO BE YOUR SLAVE AND DO WHAT YOU WANT. He has a job to do, you paid for him to do that JOB, all he has to do is teach, shut-up and teach, do the lectures, give the tests, give the grades, it’s his job to teach his “subject-matter” Both of them are partially wrong, the student doesn’t need to write a dumb e-mail (Here’s a free life lesson- never put anything negative on paper/e-mail/voice-mail/Facebook/twitter/ this website.. that will trace back to you) The teacher needs to understand he teachers business and is not a guidance counselor or life teacher. It’s nice that he tried to help the student by giving his opinion but it’s not what he is being paid to do. Those of you that side with the teacher are wrong, I’m sorry I know it hurts. You can make it political and say it’s entitlement but that doesn’t make any sense in this situation so maybe you should go back to school again. Education is a business. I pay, you teach. It’s simple. You can give X amount of scenarios, but they are all irrelevant so don’t. I pay, you teach. Simple, straight forward. Boom roasted, You’re welcome.
Where was he non-politically correct? The response was mature and wise. That is considered non-politically correct these days? I’m guessing you are thinking of people who like to be asses to people and are too lazy to do what this professor did. I’ve seen people clap and praise that kind of “non-politically correct”. This professor was articulate and compassionate. He was professionally respectful and did not go the road of demeaning the student.
I think this professor is awfully full of himself.
In this day and age where so many students aimlessly take courses “just for a grade” without any real idea of what they want out of it (or what they want out of their education in general besides being able to say they have a degree), I have to say that I admire the student’s initiative to seek out multiple (conflicting time) courses first before deciding which one to take. It is his/her money paying the tuition after all, so I don’t blame him/her for being choosy about which course s/he is taking. I commend any student that puts thought and consideration into his education planning, instead of picking classes based on “not being too early in the morning” “not having class on Fridays” etc.
And as a former higher ed instructor, my first classes of the semester (as this was in the email) were generally introductions to myself, the course, and a broad overview of what the students could expect to be doing and learning over the course of the semester. It is the perfect class for interested students to check out to see if they like my teaching style and are interested in the course’s learning objectives. It would not bother me at all if a student dropped in for 20 min to decide between my class and another offered at the same time. But then again, I have confidence enough in my teaching that I know they’d choose me!
@grammarnazi you ended your sentence in a preposition, but i agree with you
Loved it!!!!
First, I can’t believe that anyone would side with the student here. There is a lot of talk of money here, and what that “buys” you. This gives me the urge to explain these concepts, but then I stop and think: “How in the hell do people not get that is an issue of proper public behavior and manners? Hell, do they even understand the concept of “manners”?!” But I am not going to waste my time explaining such elementary things – nor should anyone else. Here is what I would like to contribute to this debate…. I have been a student at multiple universities, nationally known universities like Purdue and even top-ten universities like Northwestern, where I went to graduate school. And in no university have I ever been able to schedule more than one class for the same timeslot. So, what could be presumed here, is that he wasn’t actually enrolled for the course (or maybe he was, but then wouldn’t have actually been enrolled in the other two he did his taste test on). So, in effect, he was auditing the course for the day. And it’s my understanding that a student may not audit any course just because he or she feels like it; the student must get permission from the professor (at least) before going to the class. So, essentially, the student was going to classes that he wasn’t even invited to join in on. Sooo, not only was he an hour late to the party, he crashed the party as well. Hmmm. Maybe I should just look up some classes that I might be interest in at NU, and just walk in on them. Hell, I’m still a student there. I pay a LOT of money to go there for all my degrees. I should totally be able to just sample any ol’ class of my choosing. Right? (For those of you who don’t get it, I’m being facetious. And facetious means…. wait… oh never mind). YOU’RE NOT BUYING THE RIGHT TO BE AN IDIOT OR RUDE!! There is nothing stopping any student from doing their due diligence to make the very best decision they can about the classes they choose. (Perhaps ASK to audit the class in a previous semester to get a feel for the class, or do one – or all – of the many things that others, including the professor at Stern, have suggested here.) But there are proper and improper ways to go about these things. And if you can’t grasp that, then going to grad school – or, better yet, even college – may not be what you need to work towards next; maybe some life lessons on manners from Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood would be a better starting point for you. And what still has me shocked and curious…. How the hell did he get into Stern??
The professor has some relevant points. He has a perspective of someone who runs the show but has not experienced what it is like to be directly lectured in probably quite some time. This perspective is not wrong, just “different”. The bottom line is school is a business. And if institutions want to charge students with anywhere from 3000-25000 dollars to attend, then students should have the right to show up whenever they see fit–academic morality aside.
Just for the record, this is not a “mean” professor. Just because some people can not handle the truth does not make him “mean”. He is being honest and he is an example of what more adults should be. I work with kids and the problem with this generation is they are praised for everything they do, makes them horrible people. this professor is a hero and more authoritative figures need to be like him. WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD
I wish there were more professors like this out there. Kids today as so damned self absorbed. This is not a generational thing, it’s about “me, me and me!” I would hate to work and worse supervise someone like that student: nightmare. Also an HR nightmare.
Anyone can be self absorbed regardless of age, sex, etc. Don’t generalize.
Professors today will tell you that students act in their classes in a way that was unthinkable when we were undergraduates. I opened a lecture with a request that students not talk to each other during class…while they paid attention awhile, the most egregious offenders were chatting away within the hour. No policy about classroom decorum is respected, yet there’s resentment if you stop a lecture to ask for quiet and attention. Professors have just learned that respect is a thing of the past, and if you ask for it, you’ll be trashed on the student evals, which are now the end-all and be-all of determining if a professor is a quality teacher.
Jessica,
“Professors have just learned that respect is a thing of the past, and if you ask for it, you’ll be trashed on the student evals, which are now the end-all and be-all of determining if a professor is a quality teacher.”
Respect is a thing of the past? Better check your attitude. Last I knew an employer would be showing your the door. You expect a paycheck from them and you want to trash them? Better get real!
You might find it is a different world when your employer fires you for being late. Trashing your employer certainly might make you feel better, but your potential next employer won’t find your attitude or comments appreciable.
Jessica is absolutely right. The person who took umbrage with her reply has *absolutely no idea* what the world of academia is like, thank goodness for those of us who *do*.
Of course Jessica is right. People like “Anonymous #1” doesn’t realize the brutal effect that politicians have had on public education.
Oh, there are most definitely distinct generational differences. As a Gen Xer in the workplace, my style is very different from Baby Boomers. And Gen Yers are different still. I hate to say it, but managing a staff of Gen Yers for 2 years completely burned me out on management. I did just fine for the previous 10 years managing Baby Boomers and other Gen Xers. The need for constant feedback and reassurance was exhausting, as was the constant demands to “make my job meaningful to me”. What this NYU student did pretty much screams of typical Gen Y behavior, based on my workplace experiences.
http://www.fdu.edu/newspubs/magazine/05ws/generations.htm
I am a professor. A young, female professor in a neuroscience department. I demand respect in my class and I get it without much issue. I had two students who decided it would be okay for them to talk while I spoke. I gave them one warning in which they were told not to talk while I talked or they would be asked to leave. This lasted a few weeks. Once they began to talk again, I told them to go. They may trash me on my eval, but I know several other students who came up to thank me afterward because it is distracting. These kids (or their parents) pay to go to school and want and education without the distraction of some idiot who just wants to flirt with the person next to them for the next 1.5 hours. I have been a professor for 4 years now. I have had very few bad evaluations and I have had many good ones. I also enjoy teaching and am enthusiastic about what I do and sharing it with others. Many of the students have been coddled their whole life and need to learn what respect is, but you can’t demand respect without giving it back.
Donna- I have to grudgingly agree with you. Oy. I’ve had the same experience…
Ugh the kids of today learned their manners from their parents and their parents’ generation. If kids today are rude, it is because their rude parents and their parents’ rude generation did not teach them any manners. I was raised by parents who valued good manners, simple things like “please” and “thank you” and treating others with decency and civility. I am a Gen X’er. My parents had me old – they are from the Greatest Generation.
I cannot count on all the fingers and toes of every person living in my city how many people without manners there are – of all ages. From flipping people off for something stupid in traffic to talking on cell phones while standing on line at the checkout counter, exposing every single person around to an inane and usually totally unimportant conversation which could be saved for later when one is *not* making others wait, to people placing orders using “Give me,” “Yeah, I’ll have,” “I’ll take,” “I want,” or “Get me,” and then failing to say “thank you,” I see it every day, every time I leave my office and go anywhere. People are rude, and it is *NOT* just “kids.” I hear and see this rudeness from people of *ALL* ages. Americans seem to have collectively forgotten how to be civil to one another. But please, don’t blame it on the kids today.
My daughter always says please and thank you. As a 16 year old, she’s still a kid, and she’s got better manners than many people I see out and about who are two, three, even four times her age.
I am a 20 year old and I would like to say, that as much as I would like to blame the lack of manners from some on one’s parents, you cannot generalize this for all rude teenagers and people. It is true that a lack of parenting can be the cause to this, it cannot only be attributed to that. Many times kids do what they please regardless of parenting.
I have many friends who have extremely good parents (to a degree) and always try to get them to be mindful of others and have manners. However, they still show a lack of respect and manners to others. I also have seen the opposite in some of my friends. So in a nutshell, I would agree to what you are saying, but only a certain degree. Parenting does play a factor in the respectfulness of their children and their manners, but it is only to a slim factor.
I do not believe that it is right to blame one’s parents fully for their children’s shortcomings. The blame must be placed on the person him or herself. That is another problem with the world (America) today, blaming others for their own problems, such as obesity etc etc… But that is another problem and topic of its own.
PS. I did not mean any disrespect in posting/replying this to you. I only wanted to share my own opinion as a male, 20 year old college student.
Dear Juliana and Jonathan,
I (partially) agree with both of you. I guess it’d safe to say that, things are hardly ever really just black, or white. From your comments, I suppose it would all boil down to the debate of nature vs. nurture. Have science progressed to the point where it’s possible to exactly/accurately quantify the role of either one ? Is it 50:50 or 20:80 or 80:20 or…?
If so, I so sorry, I under a rock 😛
This isn’t a problem with the ‘kids of today’. This person is just irresponsible. S/He made a stupid life choice and got what was coming to him/her. Personally, I feel the professor was being very kind. The complements that were peppered in weren’t necessary. The student is an adult and should act like one. But don’t judge every below the age of 30 (or whatever your arbitrary limit for being ‘young’ is) based on this person’s one moronic decision. The offended professor didn’t judge them, why should you?
If you have a problem with the youth of today, I suggest you look at how you or your contemporaries raised them and what you provided as examples. I also suggest you remember how you were at that age without the rose-colored glasses. Shockingly enough, 20 year-olds often do not know what they want to do or be or who they are or are that conscientious about the finesse involved in navigating the overwhelming egos of a college institution. And especially if one is privileged enough to be accepted to Stern or one of the other top B schools, you may have worked hard to get there but it’s a lifestyle of privilege that affords you that opportunity in the first place. On the other hand, I would expect a 40-something/50-something professor, a “leader in business” to have a little more sense to get all worked up by a young student’s presumptuous but polite email enough to take the pissy action Professor Galloway did.
I teach at a large state university, and I make it very simple to my students: Anything disruptive will not be tolerated. I give a warning, and then you’re out. Done. I also turn off my phone, and make sure I set the example to students that I do not teach by a double standard. I find that if you are consistent in the enforcement of any policy from day one, 95% of your students take you seriously.
The ones that are in your class to get an education without having someone be rude and/or interuptive will respect you. The ones that are there killing time because they don’t know what they want to be when they grow up will probably give you the most grief – but they would have anyway.
As for the professor, I think sending it to the whole class is a bit much, but I agree with what he says – even though I would have taken a different approach. Direct feedback is a lost art these days, and it would serve many students well if they knew how to process it. They usually don’t experience it until they are in their bosses office about to get fired. Too bad.
AT $60,000 A YEAR THE KID HAD A DAMN GOOD RIGHT TO BE SELF-ABSORBED.
“AT $60,000 A YEAR THE KID HAD A DAMN GOOD RIGHT TO BE SELF-ABSORBED.” said Romney. Seriously? You’re losing sight of the argument. And this, my friends, is why the rich think they matter more. What you’re paying isn’t giving you the right to change policy. If so, then a degree shouldn’t be earned, you should just be able to write a check and get the certificate in the mail. We are creating business people of the future and if they go by your theory, we are in the same trouble we’ve been in for the past many years….
So what about those paying $60,000 that wanted to actually learn? Not saying that sending the email to the entire class was right, but some students want to learn.
Regardless of the teacher’s policy, anyone who has attended NYU for more than five minutes knows there is a strict attendance policy – more than 15 minutes late = absent. More than two absences with no doctor’s note? Drop a letter grade. This kid’s ingenuous manner is complete b.s.
Not just NYU, nearly every university has zero tolerance policies for tardiness greater than 15 minutes (except verified, valid reasons). That type of tardiness disrupts the entire lecture.
“That type of tardiness disrupts the entire lecture.” Give me a break. Yes, I’m sure Professor Galloway has amazingly magical information that will change the lives of every student who attends his lecture. Really? So the kid was being presumptuous, but Professor Galloway’s response is really ridiculous and self-important. I’m sure Professor Galloway is an amazing success that everyone NEEDS to listen to in his own mind, but if I were that student I would consider myself blessed to know what a dick he was and to stay as far away as possible when navigating the “politics of an organization” like Stern. No one finds it ironic the kid was offering feedback specifically regarding “manners and demonstrating a level of humility” Professor Galloway contemptibly rejects and then chastises and proselytizes about in return?
@Countervail Really? Then why can’t he show up an hour late to lecture? After all, the students paying for his class must figure no one really NEEDS to listen to him or learn any “magical information.” If you choose to attend college and sign up for a course, then you abide by simple rules. It is not that different from the workplace. Do you NEED to be there the full 8 or 9 hours a day to get all your work done? Maybe not, but it is still expected of you regardless.
@countervail: maybe it is ironic, but the most presumptuous thing about the email was that the kid felt that he was in a position where he could remind the teacher of his manners.
The student thinks he is informed enough to tell the quality of a class relative to others by listening to 20 minutes of a lecture, then makes an excuse by trying explain his genius plan to the teacher he interrupted. Nowhere in the email does the student apologize, he simply claims ignorance about the rules because he had more important things to do, like interrupt other professors.
Maybe the professor is self-absorbed, but the other 80 people in the class obviously thought something important would be occurring because they were there and registered for the class.
Perhaps I should explain to my next boss that I couldn’t possibly be expected to be on time the first day because I was sampling other jobs that occurred simultaneously. Then when I get yelled at, remind my boss how self-absorbed he is to think that every minute of his time counts.
@countervail. you miss understand the professor’s message. He isn’t speaking strictly for himself but actually for all teachers, and he is right. He may not have something life changing to say every lecture, or in even one lecture, but you can bet at some point one professor is going to say something that hits you right then and there, or something seemingly small that sticks with you the rest of your life. It happened with my teachers, they taught me some important lessons. You can’t disrespect the professors of 3 different classes and expect to get away with it in such a way. If you’re going to do something commit to it and do it right. Don’t do what this kid did.
Nearly every university? These kinds of policies are almost unheard of in science/engineering classes.
The point here is not how much disruption is caused by one student arriving an hour late; it is how much disruption would be caused if it were generally accepted behaviour.
I agree with anonymous above- this policy is not at all common in science/engineering programs (possibly because classes are often larger lectures with less teacher-student interaction). I did my undergrad at MIT and my grad work at Duke, and I’ve never heard of such a policy.
In fact, attendance is entirely irrelevant at many schools. I’ve taken several classes which I attended a total of five times (first day, 3 exams, and final). As long as you do well on exams and problem sets, you can still get an A.
I so admire this professor. That student is not invested in her own education. She needed a wake-up call.
It was a guy. He said “his laptop”
Actually, the correct way to address someone of unknown gender is using male-pronouns, i.e. ‘his’ laptop.
@King, “they” is an increasingly accepted gender-neutral pronoun to use to refer to an individual.
The professor asked the student to leave the lecture hall, which would indicate to us Professor Galloway saw the student. Knowing this, and the fact that Prof. Galloway received the original email from the student with their name, it seems fairly apparent the student was male, as indicated by the use of “his” in Prof Galloway’s email. Although having seen the student and their name does not necessarily mean there couldn’t be a mistake on Professor Galloway’s part, but it seems more likely that the author made the mistake when referring to the student as female. I don’t know why we would trust the author reporting this story second hand about the gender of the person more so than Prof Galloway’s.
@AG: Absolutely true, and it’s definitely used the most. But i’m only speaking strictly in the proper english rule in the case. Seems the professor is very knowledgeable of the proper grammar & general english rules, so i figured it was more so that he said ‘his’ for that reason.
I assumed it was a woman too. Call me sexist but the only people I know who would pull a sampling of classes are women. Most of my guy friends would enroll and stick it out or drop it.
Well, now you’ve got a reason to stop assuming that.
you are sexist
the introduction states: “a student walked into the 1st day of class an hour late and the professor told HER to leave & come back to the next class” . . . so it potentially could still be a female. Androgynous name perhaps?
The article summary said “her” so I don’t know why you would think it was a guy. I didn’t notice the “his” in the professor’s email really. You’re not sexist.
You’re not sexist for assuming the student was female based on the choice of pronouns used, but you ARE sexist for implying that women are flightier than men, who are, according to you, more likely to “stick it out.” This student, male or female, needed to have a wakeup call. And so do you if you think it’s appropriate to make snap judgments about half the population of the Earth.
Women aren’t flightier than men. In situations like these they generally have reduced consequences from expressed flightiness, and so tend to engage in behaviors that most men wouldn’t.
Yes, Apparently Also A Sexist indeed. I never had a professor who doled out different consequences for men and women. Women and men are different, but the implication here is that men are more responsible, while women rely on their femininity to avoid consequences while displaying irresponsible behavior. Shameful.
I think you all need to relax and stop taking a typo so seriously.
Uhh I’m a guy and I sure as hell sampled classes before committing to them. Why buy a car without taking it for a drive first?
It’s a simple matter really. Making observations on the differences in appearance and behaviour between men and women is not sexist. Making statements that peg the reasons and motivations behind one particular observed individuals decisions or actions as as a group (in this case sex) characteristic, is sexist.
If the observation you are making about the “differences in behavior” between the sexes is in fact an inaccurate generalization that trades in sexist tropes, then it is, in fact, sexist.
In response to Colleen, the tendency to stick it out as opposed to being flighty is not meant in a derogatorily sexist way. As a man finishing uni who is friends with girls and guys in uni, we (men) often stick with it because it works in the schedule, the prof is easy, we are lazy, or a whole host of other reasons. All the girls I know are flighty in the way that they take more care and time into having the perfect schedule/ classes. A lot of men are like this, just as a lot of girls are also lazy like the men I’m referring to. Another thing is that girls take care in planning their courses whereas a lot of guys just pick the required ones and only research things hours before class registration. Sort of sexist to note these kinds of things, but it’s really just the way people tend to be- much in the same way that girls tend to have long hair and earrings and guys tend to have short hair: not always true but its the way things tend to be.
So wait, if the ratio of women vs. men who sampled classes was studied and ended up around, I don’t know, 75% to 25%, would that still make these people sexist? Would I be a sexist if I saw somebody with long hair, make-up, full breasts, and assumed it was a girl? Where’s the line here…
This is a complete straw man argument. If those statistics actually existed (that is, if you weren’t just completely making it up that 75% of class-samplers were women), you MIGHT have a point. Even then, though, it wouldn’t absolve anyone of sexism to assume as such.
Also, your argument about what you see with your own eyes has absolutely nothing to do with anything. You would naturally assume that someone with long hair, makeup and full breasts is a female (although there are some very convincing drag queens in the world) and no one could fault you if you turned out to be incorrect. If you assume that a Jew is greedy, an Asian is a bad driver and a woman is rude and indecisive, as the poster to whom we’re replying did in assuming the student was female based SOLELY on the behavior displayed, you might have a problem with racism, sexism and generally making sweeping generalizations.
basically from Colleen argument, you can only assume things that she agrees with. but if she does not agree with the assumption then it is sexism. Good job Colleen. Saying that girls are usually one way and guys are usually another way is not wrong. Everyone…and I mean everyone does that, even if they don’t say they do. We make assumptions about people and act on those assumptions. Glad there are people like you though that help me realize that my closed mindedness is terrible in comparison to your closedmindedness.
I sort of randomly found this page, but man are there a lot of idiots here! If you think Colleen is being closed-minded here, you’re nuts. Your argument was completely vapid and she owned you with facts. Deal with it.
-hdg
Does the professor have the right to say such things; yes, they do. But the larger question is who are they doing it for? To help the student or to boost their ego? I teach at a university and I can attest for a decline in manners and respect among students. It is our job as educators to set them on track and help them to find their way. I think of myself as a hard but a fair teacher. I adhere to my policies very strictly with the hopes that the students understand that this, along with the course material, is part of their education. But I also know that the first day of class can be a little crazy. Students are figuring out what classes they want and trying to find out where they are supposed to be. Why be so harsh on the first day? What are you gaining in this? The teachers job is to help the student. That is why we are there. I’m not saying bend over backwards for them, but put them on track. And that diatribe about logic, policy, decision making or critical thinking…please. That doesn’t mean you have to be an asshole (at least not on the first day). Don’t be so righteous.
Yes, the student is trying to figure out what he wants to be. But stated himself that he is not a normal undergraduate, but an MBA candidate.
Yes, I agree with you Steve. The professor’s response doesn’t set a good example. If the intention is to tell the student to demonstrate a level of humility, the professor doesn’t set a good example of that himself. The student may have been self-absorbed, but the professor sets an even lower example by being egotistic. If he comes from a place of caring and wants to send the student a wake-up call, there are many ways to do it besides this slap in the face email. The student’s email was respectful and straightforward, which I appreciate and which shows she has enough humility and respect to learn from her mistake. However, the professor, especially in his position, needs to acquire or re-acquire these qualities.
The student’s e-mail was minimally polite, but it was NOT respectful or humble, nor did it show willingness to learn from a mistake, since the student clearly believes he or she did not make a mistake. Read it again. The student did not at any point apologize for coming late or admit poor judgment. Instead, (s)he faults the professor for not guessing why (s)he came so late and making an exception for a reason that’s just as rude as any other. Not only that, but there was no reason at all for the student to write the e-mail except to save his or her own ego, since said student has already decided to take a different class (and seems to think this will make the professor regret his actions, as if professors are clamoring for students who don’t respect them enough to show up at the beginning of class and stay to the end). The default thing to do would be to let it drop and continue in the other class.
The professor’s response may be a little over the top (and there really was no need to forward it to the whole class), but I don’t think it was egotistical so much as bluntly putting a mirror up to the student’s self-absorbed attitude (“*I* need to shop for classes, never mind if my interruption lowers the quality of the class for everyone else! And then I will hold my professor responsible for what I missed for the hour I wasn’t there and whine again when it shows up on the test!”)
Professors understand that sometimes students want extra time to choose classes, and WANT to give them that chance, within reason, to ensure that students aren’t stuck in a class where they are likely to fail, cause problems, or be miserable. But there are more and less respectful ways to “shop.” The best thing to do is contact the professors a week before classes start and ask for a syllabus to help you decide. If you’re still hesitating after comparing syllabi, explain your dilemma and ask permission to sit in on one class the first day, the other class the next, and make a decision after that, or if the classes aren’t at the same time. It is never OK to roam around campus from class to class during one time slot to sample a few minutes of each, and that should be obvious to anyone who thinks for two seconds about how that might affect the class dynamic and infringe on the rights of professors and fellow students.
What’s the point in being ‘respectful’ when an employer would fire you instantly. The reason why this student felt they could ever do such indecisive apathetic actions is the precise reason why you just stated. People need to stop siding with people who believe they are owed something or that we can’t be harsh or truthful. Life is hard get used to it, and university is EXACTLY where this should be being taught to curve such self sentenced views of the world.
If the student was an undergraduate– especially an underclassman– I might agree with you. But s/he wasn’t. This is an MBA candidate we’re talking about. They’ve already had 4 years of college to get a grip on the basics of classroom protocol (to say nothing of common courtesy). Someone at a graduate level pulling this crap– especially in a highly-esteemed B-school program–is demonstrating an attitude of complete entitlement, and the professor was well within his rights to let them have it. Sure, it could have been put a little more diplomatically, but this student had already made it clear that subtlety was not a strong suit.
They are doing it for the student. The professor could have simply not replied. The professor, instead, took maybe an hour of their time to compose this message.
This message has LIFE advice. That the student needs to learn. The professor has done him a huge favor – IF the student actually takes it.
“K” you hit it on the head, I came into my teaching position after years of running a small business, I teach my students not only facts on the subject, but life skills to help them with their careers, such as “on time” is 30 minutes early…
In my experience, the professor didn’t waste an hour of his time on the reply. . . try 5-7 minutes at the most.
well said,
The students message to the professor was very neutral in tone and well written in my opinion. The response on the other hand seemed fairly disproportionate and borderline childish, not to mention reeking of ego. Emailing it to your entire class? It’s so obnoxiously, contemptuously patronizing it’s hard to believe. The reality is that being flexible on day one seems like a reasonable request, and to some further up in the comments who claimed that the student in question “was not invested in their own education” I would ask: how is planning to attend 3 separate classes in order to determine what is the best fit not “being invested”. As someone who is actually paying for mba courses right now, getting stuck with a shit professor is something to be avoided at all costs. Taking initiative to get the best schedule for a term should be commended, not ridiculed by a petulant and self-righteous ass.
I agree the professor sounds irritated. I would have been much more free with derision in his place, though. Are you kidding me with that? What grown person excuses being an hour late on the grounds that they ‘couldn’t have known it wouldn’t be ok’? Maybe the student can ask his folks to intervene? I hear parents are going on job interviews nowadays, and this student certainly seems the type to accept that assistance.
I take “best fit” to mean “Whichever professor will allow me to do the least amount of work and skate my sorry ass past this material with a passing grade.”
That’s clearly what this student was looking for, and it’s clearly what you seem to look for. This kid’s attitude was condescending, selfish garbage and the professor was exceedingly polite in his response.
In truth, he is probably lucky to have this student out of his class. This type of student is the kind that asks for favors and extensions because they think they are “special” in some way.
‘neutral in tone and well written’, but also completely unapologetic which is the first thing it should be.
I actually think the neatest thing about the exchange is that the tone of the reply is completely appropriate to the original email, it has the same self importance but without the entitled naivety of the original
A quick consideration of why, after being notified of his/her mistake, the student wrote an e-mail about being ‘bothered’ to a professor whose class won’t be taken is pretty clear indication that the e-mail is not in fact ‘neutral’, but a pretty presumptuous asshole move.
Dear sir,
I’m ‘bothered’ that you yelled at me after I farted in your face considering that (1) you never told me I couldn’t do that and (2) I had really bad gas. No, I’m not apologizing. I thought I should be treated better.
Regards,
Ass
I agree with brian. The student was looking for which classes best suits him/her. I don’t think that just by walking in late, disturbs the class. The profesor interupted his own class. He could of just asked the student to see him after class. And to add insult to injury he emails It to the entire class! The profesor was just using this student as an example just to put fear in the other students. I don’t think it’s What You say, but How You say. Yes it’s a life lesson, but i don’t really think that this student is going to be an hour late to work just because he was sampling clases. The student was not rude in his email, i think he was just letting the profesor know that this was a one time thing. There is something called decorum, which was lacking in the profesor’s response.
What I have not seen addressed is how a student could miss the beginning of the class, and presumably whatever introduction to the class, coursework and syllabi were provided and think that is an acceptable means by which to determine which class is best. I do, actually, understand the value of choosing which class from among several that fit your degree plan and fill requirements would be a ‘best fit’ for your intellectual pursuits, time and interest, but this was not only an enormously disrespectful way to go about it, it’s particularly unintelligent, and reeks of seeking the class with the lowest expectations or work assignments. And I completely disagree that the tone of the email was neutral or well-written. It was whiny, complacent, and the final shot was entitlement in a nutshell.
I agree – it seems a bit harsh. I imagine the prof was using this as a warning to the other students. Sounds like he’s fed up with entitlement, and I don’t blame him.
Well said, I left a teaching position that catered to the checkbook of the parents, “pass them regardless” was the unwritten attitude of the school. This instructor
did this student the biggest favor of their life by treating him (or her) as the real world will.
Steve brings up a very important point. The academic world is so full of ego, and his letter seems rife with it. The professor has valid points, but so does the student. Let’s not forget that the student pays huge tuition fees. The most important point the professor makes is that the student should learn to think ahead of time, research policies, and even contact the professor ahead of time to let them know or ask permission. Students should always be respectful of teachers. But at the same time, respect is earned, those are just the facts. Students should be allowed to “shop” around to find the right fit for their success in their education (though, in a more respectful way than interrupting class). Employers would be wise to remember that even though they are always in the power position, no one can escape the higher truth that life is a two way street. I’ve seen this play out in the working world, and I think ultimately, employers are missing out when they don’t listen to feedback, when jump to conclusions, and when they don’t listen to their employees or consider their employees’ lives, wishes, goals, desires, at least to some degree. I also think professors and employers would be wise to check their ageist bullying tactics. Young people have a lot to offer, are smart and energetic, … and, they grow up.
“The student pays high tuition fees”? Please. If you want it your way, right away, go to burger king. You wouldn’t walk into a five star restaurant, disrupt the dining experience for everyone, and then write a letter stating that you were “bothered” when they threw you out. Well, maybe you would. But an MBA candidate at Stern should certainly know better, if (s)he deserves to be there. Any, by the way, every student in that room pays high tuition fees.
I’m sorry…the student has no valid points. Not one.
No the student DOES not have any valid points. The professor was 100% current in his response, and was merely being a good educator by forwarding the exchange on to his entire class. If even one of them learns that they need to take full responsibility for ALL their actions, the professor succeeds.
The prof is up the hierarchy chain and the student is at the bottom. This is the way the academic world works. Perhaps it is not fair. Life is not fair. Deal with it.
Concerning this idea that respect is earned… This professor has an advanced degree and the stories start states they are a “popular” professor. Even given these facts since the student has never met the professor this logic train then must follow that the student is under no pressure to conform to simple rules of decorum since the professor has not earned the students respect yet. Crazy. You know I wonder if the student would be upset if I walked into their weddings 40 minutes late and causing a distraction. If I lived the basic principle above … the bride, groom, and guest have not earned my respect yet since I don’t know them, so no issue here. OK, in that example you respond that I have not “purchased” anything… OK let’s instead try walking into a play or movie in the middle of it and then climbing over everyone to find a seat. I assume the student would have no issue with this either as I don’t know them, the performers, or anyone else in the theater so they have earned my respect.
This student is a Master’s candidate. If, by that level in education, you don’t have the common sense to do your homework on courses BEFORE the semester begins there’s something seriously wrong with the undergraduate education you’ve received. Graduate professors ARE NOT responsible for teaching their students manners (particularly in fields such as business where many students are ‘older’ and have years of work experience).
Oh, wow, I missed the Master’s candidate part in my reading. That makes the student’s behavior even more insufferable. Ugh.
“The first day can be a bit crazy”. If you walked into your first day at work 1 hour late and then wrote your boss the ridiculous email the student sent the professor, you would no doubt be let go. The job market is so hard to get into, being entitled and pretentious will guarantee that a recent grad stays nothing but a grad.
Let them tell that to a “BOSS” if they find a job…ijs
By now they are suppose to be “GROWN”…!!!
Steve, you indicate that you are an educator. Well, I hope that either you do not teach English and/or that your grammar-checker is not working. The quality of the writing in your response is indicative of the problems that we have in education today.
Anonymous, I’m also an educator. Since I have the advantage of anonymity in this case, I’ll give you a response that may or may not be grammatically correct, but will carry the message quite well: shut the fuck up if you have nothing of value to contribute. It’s clear that your motivation in correcting Steve’s grammar was to discredit the content of his message by discrediting Steve (e.g., an ad hominem attack). Additionally, you managed a broad swipe at education by introducing a second logical fallacy: Composition. And speaking of the word “composition,” your response was composed poorly. Your use of “and/or” was clumsy and lazy, breaking the flow of the sentence. The ad hominem, the carelessness of poor writing in a critique of poor writing, and your attempt at indicting the entire education system on the basis of one response all indicate that you probably don’t have anything of value to contribute. Therefore, I feel well justified in telling you to shut the fuck up.
There is a very concise description in the course directory on what a class will entail. The kid was full of shit. NEVER MISS CLASS…. EVER!
Props to the professor – especially for sending it to EVERYONE in class.
Well if it’s a professor than it’s who is he or she doing it for….
Moving along. Yep, he who casts the first stone, be he without sin.
“the teachers job is to help the student. ”
That is exactly what this professor did in writing his response, and in sharing the exchange with his class. The student in question showed total disrespect to the class, to the professor and to himself. The professor sought to teach that student what they did wrong and help guide them into making better choices in the future. The professor also helped teach the entire class that their actions have consequences. If even one of them thinks of this exchange the next time they face a similar situation and opts to act with respect and good manners, then the professor will have been wildly successful.
Wait a second — you adhere to your policies “very strictly” on the one hand, but you suggest cutting the student slack on the first day on the other hand? How about picking a position and sticking with it!
Yes, I agree with you Steve. The professor’s response doesn’t set a good example. If the intention is to tell the student to demonstrate a level of humility, the professor doesn’t set a good example of that himself. The student may have been self-absorbed, but the professor sets an even lower example by being egotistic. If he comes from a place of caring and wants to send the student a wake-up call, there are many ways to do it besides this slap in the face email. The student’s email was respectful and straightforward, which I appreciate and which shows she has enough humility and respect to learn from her mistake. However, the professor, especially in his position, needs to acquire or re-acquire these qualities.
Yes, I agree with you Steve. The professor’s response doesn’t set a good example. If the intention is to tell the student to demonstrate a level of humility, the professor doesn’t set a good example of that himself. The student may have been self-absorbed, but the professor sets an even lower example by being egotistic. If he comes from a place of caring and wants to send the student a wake-up call, there are many ways to do it besides this slap in the face email. The student’s email was respectful and straightforward, which I appreciate and which shows she has enough humility and respect to learn from her mistake. However, the professor, especially in his position, needs to acquire or re-acquire these qualities.
Pointing out someone’s ego is NOT being egotistical. If the professor has said, “Even if this was your first class, I am the great prof. so and so – I’m a master in my field and my time is never to be wasted!” but the professor DIDN’T.
The professor pointed out the student’s initial rudeness. The student interrupted no classes four times with his coming and going-mid-class (leaving early for the first class, arriving late AND leaving early for the second, and arriving late to the third). He is interrupting HUNDREDS of people. And then he has the utter gall to say his feelings were hurt by this?
The professor did not put on a display of ego – the professor simply informed the student of proper and COMMON etiquette, which is not rude. If you see someone pull down their pants and squat in the middle of a restaurant, the manager is not “inflating their own ego” by asking that patron to please use the restroom for that kind of business. What this student was doing was the academic equivalent of shitting in the middle of a restaurant.
I’m sorry, but I would guess if the student’s plan was to sample three classes in the evening, I doubt it would be in a way that interrupted “HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE.” Thinking ahead it would have been prudent to let the teachers involved know, but I think the only thing that got interrupted was the professor’s self-importance.
I really hate this idea that everything has to be caring to be heard. Get over it. You will have an asshole boss. That doesn’t make him wrong – in fact, in this case, he’s pretty dead on. Also, this guy was an MBA candidate, not a 19 year old undergrad. If you don’t have it together enough to know that walking into class an hour late is not acceptable by then, then you have missed some major life skills. You wouldn’t do it on your first day at work, why would you do it for the first day of class – especially at a business school, and one with a pretty great name in business schools. This professor has actually done nothing wrong. There was no discrimination here, no comment of something that cannot be helped, but rather he pointed out incredibly unacceptable behavior – and again, I go back to my first point, he doesn’t have to be polite to do it – that’s not his job. I think the fact he bothered to write back at all says something about his teaching ethic. So, like his style or not, all I can say is good job dude! Thank you for actually saying something to people who need the wake-up call.
juliatbwa = LIKE! 🙂
Amen, sister. This prof’s terseness is nothing compared to what this student is going to get upon entry into Real Life.
You might want to fix your article. You said the prof told “her” to come back the next class, but the prof. clearly indicates the writer was a guy.
This is absolutely true and I was just going to make a note of it. Please explain the misgendering.
As a recent (ish) grad from even a undergrad level, I have to agree with the professor. Even when shopping classes, being aware of other people, fellow students or professors, is a must – it’s not just NYU that has strict attendance policies, and even dropping a note to inform the professor that they were shopping (or even all three?) and might either leave early or arrive late, would have gone a long way towards showing even a little respect and awareness for how their behavior and choices would disrupt the class. As someone who has experienced this action from fellow students, and as someone who has shopped in a far more respective manner, I applaud a teacher who asks a student to leave when they show up out of the blue an hour into class like the only person in the class who matters is them. Shop respectfully make good choices.
I can see where the prof. is coming from and he does make a fair point, it is rude to get up in the middle of class or arrive late and disrupt a whole class full of students – I’m in uni and it also annoys me when ppl arrives more than 30 mins late. Regardless, I must say this email was rather unnecessary and over the top, the student’s email was rather neutral and he was just making a opinion. Meanwhile the teacher’s email sounded egotistic, snotty and forwarding it to the entire class was just plain childish and extremely unprofessional. Just for argument’s sake, if this student had insisted on picking a class without going around ‘class shopping’ wouldn’t it have been even more problematic for the uni’s administration to have to arrange to change him to another class when he decides he doesn’t like the class he signed up for?
If you can’t even write out “people,” don’t expect to make a splash once you get out of “uni” (that’s university or college, by the way.) People like you are the first applicants I toss out. Can’t speak English, just text? Gone. Self-entitlement during the interview? Gone.
Have fun living in your mother’s basement. Looks like it’s your first stop right after “uni.”
Let me translate. LOL ppl wont chill bcuz u cant b free in th rl world, rite? Ut-ohs! 2 baddd! MayB mummy n daddy pay 4 moar skool tho!
I’ve taught at the university level and do sympathize with the professor somewhat….But why is there a course shopping period at the beginning of the semester if a student taking advantage of it is going to be kicked out of class and sent a childish email when s/he attempts to clarify the situation? I think that the student’s tone could have been more respectful, and the student should have thought to email the professor(s) in advance about the fact that s/he was undecided between courses taking place during the same time slot – plus, three is overkill; two conflicting courses would be a little more understandable. All that said, the professor’s response strikes me as more obnoxious than the student’s intent of sampling three classes.
A student took time to passive-aggressively (let’s call it what it is) send an email chastising the Professor. The Professor then sent a direct response essentially calling said student out on their passive-aggressive response. I see no problem with this. What I’m more shocked by is the number of people posting here who also seem to think that this kind of behavior (by the student) is okay.
It’s shocking, really.
It may very well have been this student’s first ever “kick in the pants.”
I applaud Prof. Galloway
So many folks have been fooled into some righteous belief in entitlement that they devalue their profs as a mere means to an end. Thus, although in today’s overly politically correct environment which is just solidfying Aldus Huxley’s view in “Brave New World” of an overly materialistic and uncreative or irresponsible world Dr. Galloway can be judged as being indiscreet: the fact is the student was wrong. The price of an education has become more important than the quality of one’s education. If you’re getting an MBA you should be ready to swim with the big boys or as the Greeks say “the big fish eat the little fish.” Do your research before the semester, plan your timetable, it isn’t like a micro-brewery where you can get a little taste before deciding on a pint.
This professor is dead on!
First, it’s a safe bet this professor has tenure. 🙂
Anyway, I would not have cced the entire class or even another faculty member, but other than that I find the professor’s response a good one.
Here’s the important thing to remember, he’s teaching a lesson, and to someone who is not even one of his students! Most would never have even responded. This guy took the time to not only respond but to try and teach the student something that transcends just base syllabus and rote memorization. Remember when that used to be the norm? Sadly today, it’s not. He should be commended.
Prior to college the majority of this student’s educational life likely involved inflating his self esteem, accommodating his individual wants and needs, and a lack of training and experience in the ramifications of actions. That is not a proper education for adult life, one which involves entering the job force and becoming a productive member of society. Somehow, somewhere, this student needs to learn all that. College better be where, or else he’ll have a tough road ahead after college.
As for those who fail to see anything wrong with the student’s behavior or his email, I really don’t know how to respond to you.
It really depends on if “Shopping Period” is the norm at NYU – Stern, as it was at Brown where I did my undergrad. For the first week of classes, this kind of thing was pretty normal and just part of the culture.
Context is everything here — is there an acknowledged “shopping period,” and… how did the student enter the classroom? In many of my classes, a student can enter and leave at the back of the room, quietly, almost without my noticing. Apparently this student’s entrance really attracted the professor’s attention, perhaps interrupted his train of thought, etc. I have a student who entered late at the front, walked in front of the entire class, and rather noisily and obtrusively situated herself and her belongings. She got a talking-to, though not in front of everyone. Giving a student a dressing-down in front of an audience is shaming, and for me, that is not acceptable. Under any circumstance, but particularly when you have no idea about the student’s circumstance. So sending the e-mail around to everyone was crass. And making the student leave was a little imperious, too. I would have taken the student aside at the conclusion of class and asked for a chat. “Hey, it is my policy that people be on time. ‘Shopping’ is not an excuse in my book. Further, if you have to leave or enter late, you must be unobtrusive.” Or something to that effect. The student’s e-mail (which was polite, though did not acknowledge sufficiently the professor’s position), should have received a much more measured response. Mutual respect is the object, from my point of view.
I agree that context is everything. Student was either willfully oblivious or just woefully misinformed. He/she/it should’ve done a little background inquiry (from friends, fellow students, academic counselors) to find out whether “class shopping” was the norm first week of class. At the same time, these days most professors send out an email of the syllabus to everyone on their list before the first day of class (so they can buy their books ASAP) which should illustrate the zero tolerance for tardiness policy. Miscommunication all around. The prof had no obligation to let the student join the class, but still shouldn’t have CC’ed everybody, and not used quite such a snarky and vindictive tone.
Agreed. I don’t think that the prof’s response is totally over-the-top, but I don’t think his decision to forward it to the entire class, even with names removed, was entirely appropriate. I also agree that a talking-to for a first offense (on the first day of class) would’ve probably been a much better response than simple dismissal.
Are you kidding? If you are an hour late to my class you really don’t want to be there in the first place.
If you’re an hour late to come to my business, you’re fired. If you complain to me about me not being fair in firing you (presuming here your kid isn’t dead or in the hospital, no family is in jail, dying or dead, the employee is not dying or dead, and that if any of those are what’s going on, your phone exploded before you could call me) I’ll send you a sound clip of me laughing hysterically. I think the Professor was far more kind than any employer would ever be. Furthermore, I’d not only forward that kid’s email to any potential employer (so they could avoid the risk of taking that person on,) I’d probably also forward the clip of me laughing. I guess the real world just “isn’t fair.” Except it is – everyone is easily replaceable. Lots of people need jobs, and a better and more honest employee is better than one who complains that there are consequences for being late. The best way to get and keep a job is to show up on time, do your job as you’re supposed to, and not send whiney rude letters when you don’t get your way. I’m a Gen-Xer, just barely, almost too young. Sad how fast things change and how irresponsible the generation right after me seems to be. olds.
Reblogged this on Over the Top.com and commented:
I do not feel sympathy for this student. The email was rude and the was another way of writing “the apology” letter.
Reblogged this on Summer Solstice Musings and commented:
Unbelievable how young people tend to feel so entitled. In which universe it is OK to be bothered to the point of emailing the professor because he/she rightly so kicks you out of his/her class due to you being ONE HOUR late?
Young people. Get your shit together and learn some manners while you are at it. The world doesn’t owe you anything.
It’s not “young people.” It’s rich, self-absorbed, spoiled young people.
I disagree completely. I’ve taught at both at-risk schools and very privileged private schools. The sense of entitlement is near universal.
Regardless, please don’t generalize. I’m barely 20 and I’d never dream of being so rude as this student was, and my friends would neither.
In all my years in college (not that I’m proud of how long its been) I’ve always been incredibly surprised when I see things like this happen every semester and the student in question always reacts the same (“that’s not fair,” “I didn’t know,” etc). And I always wish I could ask the student where the hell they were at before college? I have to assume that on average most high schools/middle schools/elementary schools frown on tardiness so somewhere in their educational journey they must have picked up that showing up half an hour to an hour late was a bad idea. I applaud this professor for being kind enough to not just give an inscription of a middle finger to the student and actually offer some important advice. I truly hope for the sake of the student that they heed this information.
There is no lesson here for most of us. The student is not spoiled (NOR YOUNG)- she/hi is already in the work force and was sampling classes first day. Lets remember that the student has forked out $40,000/year of probably their own money so its valid strategy. In a company if you make a protocol mistake, you don’t get bashed. You get feedback and then if you make the same mistake again you get fired. The student was coming out of the corporate world to an MBA program. Also this is no normal professor (NOR OLD). This is Prof. Galloway who has a salary of 400K and other income streams well over a million dollars a year from companies he started in his early 20’s. He himself is from the complain over every little thing generation – with a hyperactive ego. By stepping into Stern and becoming a celebrity professor he must understand that his students already are hardworking and have their shit together. Its obvious from his reaction that something is eating at him. He’s not teaching raw and unfocused undergraduates – he’s teaching the best of the best. The email was way out of line – Im sure the student just brushed it off. There is no lesson here except when you rub someone the wrong way to ignore it and don’t get emotional.
Agreed.
So, I’m curious. What else is a student entitled to when they have “forked out $40,000/year of “probably” their own money”? Do they get to bring a microwave to class and warm up some coffee when they need it? Maybe a hot sandwich in the middle of lecture? Sounds delightful. Class can go long, do ordering a pizza to be delivered, that’s ok, right? Oh, sorry, this is my buddy calling, anyone mind if I take this call in the middle of class? Sweet. DUDE WHAT IS UP, MAN!!!! WE DRINKING LATER OR WHAT???? WOOOOOO!!!!!!
I mean, this is $40,000 a year I’m spending to sit in this seat, so it’s my expectation that the professor allows me various concessions. Right? Also: “Well, Dr. Galloway is famous and well paid, so he shouldn’t be sending people emails like this.” Really?
It is clear to anyone seeing this entire situation objectively, that the email wasn’t out of line at all. He smacked down an idiot student who clearly was brought up believing that he can do no wrong, and who doesn’t understand or respect authority of any kind. The email to Dr. Galloway was so condescending and ignorant, and Dr, G responded with, what was meant to be life lesson, a lesson that couldn’t be any more clear. “You break the rules, expect repercussions.” It’s that simple. Clearly, this dolt never took a second to consider the repercussions of their actions, because they are used to people bending over backwards for them.
It was good to see this Professor not taking any crap.
Very well spoken.
And what of the other students who have also paid the $40,000 to be in class and have to deal with being interrupted by this person? Don’t they have a right to be in a class and get the experience that they paid for, without someone being rude and disrupting?
No bursting into showtunes in class? What a dick!
I agree with the higher standard this professor holds his students to. If this student wanted to sample a few classes, he or she should have emailed the professors of each class ahead of time to see if it was ok to leave early/enter late. Just assuming it is ok to disrupt a class in that manner, especially as a grad student, is rude. If the student would have apologized and explained why they were late, etc.–I believe they would’ve received a quite different response.
So you think the student should just eat up more of the other student’s time by apologizing and explaining? Ha, I would rather the person just shut up, sit down and say nothing to maximize the benefit I’m getting.
The professor is right to have standards, but also full of himself. What’s the old saying about casting stones? Right. One thing to respond directly to the student, another to send it to the whole class. One day, one of those students will see the Professor do something stupid. When they pull out their iphone or gadget to record it and upload it, the professor will be furious, but s/he asked for it.
I wish there were more parents like this out there.
What strikes me about this is the professors’ arrogance. He “xxxx’d” out the student’s name and emails it to entire class?!?! Oh, how anonymous of him! I wonder who this person could be– could it be the girl who came to class an hour late the first day and was publicly told to leave? What a jerk, and his immaturity (you know he is just brimming ear to ear knowing that everyone of his captive audience was clucking about how badass he was in this email) undercuts his entire message. Maybe it’s Professor Galloway that needs to learn a thing or two about respecting an institution and demonstrating humility!
I’m in the minority here but for what these students pay, they have rights too. As the customers if they determine sampling is the best way to make a decision that doesn’t cost you thousands of dollars in mistakes, the professor needs to shut up and teach.
If you are at the MBA level, you shouldn’t need your hand held by a professor. You should be a self-starter, able to take the material given, absorb it, and be able to apply it in a variety of applications. “Well, I was shopping professors”. Frankly, that is undergrad frosh garbage, All of the professors will be using the same department vetted exam, so their teaching styles should be a secondary concern at that point in your educational career. If you are shopping around, you’re merely trying to find which of the professors will be easiest.
And since you’re trying to skate, what reason does this professor have to humor you?
I’m sure that many will disagree with this point, but frankly, those that do are the types of people who need their hands held through everything and need every concept exhaustively explained to them. Those of us who don’t need training wheels
By this logic, if I pay $10 for a movie ticket (or whatever it costs these days), I can go from one theater to the next to help me decide which movie to watch, right? And if the theater manager throws me out, I should email him/her to complain because that’s a policy I didn’t know in advance.
Students are not customers in a traditional sense. Education is not a business transaction (even when the education is about business…). Viewing education through the lens of a customer/salesman relationship demeans the entire process. Paying your tuition money entitles you to nothing except the opportunity to learn. It does not mean that you have the privilege of attending and disrupting three classes for which you are not registered.
Agree with Edik!
Wait, what? Of course this is a business transaction. An item of value (money) is exchanged for a good or service. The tuition money entitles you to whatever agreed upon service or good is described when you pay the tuition. Often it includes a series of items such as venue, instruction, and even health services in some cases. Be careful to make such broad presumptions.
Your analogy is wrong. You bought a movie ticket to one specific movie. You pay tuition to sign up for a choice of classes. There is a distinct difference. It would be more like you bought a movie pass enabling you to see as many movies as you wished and you got up after 10 minutes from each movie. Would you be rude to other patrons? Yes, you would. But would you comply with the contractual obligations? In theory, yes you would.
This student’s problem is a sense of entitlement to try to guilt-trip the professor. The professor’s problem is an ivory tower ego necessitating sending it to every student. The professor’s job is to provide instruction (albeit tenue seems to get in the way of that sometimes) on an agreed upon subject matter. His choice to proffer life advice is likely beyond that scope.
Summarily, the student is an idiot and the professor is a pompous ass. Neither are incorrect.
“You pay tuition to sign up for a choice of classes. There is a distinct difference.”
Actually, no. NYU, like many (most? all?) graduate programs charges tuition on a per-credit basis. What that means is that you add a class to your schedule, you get a bill for those credits. As this student was shopping for classes, that means one of two things:
1) he/she has not actually registered for any class during that time, and is walking in and out for free, or
2) he/she is registered for ONE of the three classes, and is visiting two others (most schools won’t allow you to register for simultaneous classes without the instructor’s permission, which obviously, this student did not have)
So, if #1 is true, then you’re right — my movie theater analogy doesn’t add up. It would be more like walking into the theater without ANY ticket, watching 20 minutes of 3 movies, and then deciding if I wanted to pay to watch the rest of one of them.
If #2 is true, then my movie theater analogy is spot on.
“The tuition money entitles you to whatever agreed upon service or good is described when you pay the tuition.”
The tuition money, since it is tied to a specific class, entitles you to attend the class under the criteria stipulated by the instructor of the class (usually in written form, in a syllabus). Again, to go back to the movie house, if I buy a ticket to a movie, go and sit in the movie and talk on my cell phone through the whole thing, I can’t pretend to be surprised if I get thrown out (or asked to put my phone away), because that is probably one of the policies of the theater. Paying the money doesn’t buy you the right to do whatever the hell you want.
I agree that NYU students pay WAY too much, and deserve certain rights, but I think the point is more that the professor is actually doing this student a massive favor by instilling (teaching, even) a very important lesson of responsibility and, as he says, humility. At NYU, the worst that happens if you rudely come in to a meeting late with no good excuse (shopping for classes doesn’t mean running in and out of them) is a professor yells at you and you feel slightly silly and embarrassed because you’re paying top dollar to be yelled at. Once this student exits Stern, and if he or she gets a job, the worse that can happen is they get fired and find it near impossible to get other employment (especially in this job market). Way better for that student to learn this lesson now in safe’ish environment. Paying high tuition (which, again, is a huge problem) doesn’t mean you should be able to do whatever you want — students would be poorly prepared for professional lives if this were true.
seriously…this is what is wrong with young people today. they have no sense of manners or responsibility or tact. this student should have just kept her trap shut instead of blabbering like a self entitled idiot.
Agreed entirely on the manners of the student, but I have also never found public shaming to be an appropriate venue to vent personal frustrations. I genuinely believe one is entitled (and stupid) and the other pompous.
I agree with TFan. I also want to clarify that 1) the student was actually male, not female (Professor Galloway’s email evidences this; I’m not sure why the author misgendered the student) and 2) young people today aren’t all the same; none of my college friends would ever dream of doing what this student did.
You’re in an MBA program and you’re “shopping” for courses? Yes, the professor is correct — dear student, get your s!#t together. If you need to shop for classes, here’s how you do it: email or call the professor a week or two before the class starts, and see if he/she is willing to share the syllabus with you. But be careful how you approach it, because we ALL know that “shopping” for courses means “looking for the easiest/least-work-intensive/etc. option.”
I can’t imagine missing the first class of a graduate-level class, let alone disrupting three of them in one night. And then to top it off, the student has the nerve to email the professor to give his/her “opinion,” as if it actually mattered?
I’m a university professor, and I think that this NYU prof is out of line. It’s up to students how to best manage their time and education. If they want to miss class or show up late, that’s their decision. If they know the material, it’s clear when they take the final exam. In this case, the student actually had a good reason to miss class, since he was trying to decide which class to take. The prof is a jerk.
Students can make their own decisions, but they need to accept the consequences of them. In this case, the consequence was not to be allowed to attend the class — appropriate, since a consequence of one student choosing to be late was to disrupt all the other students in the course. The student doesn’t apologize for the disruption; instead, s/he decides to stomp his/her foot about the “unfairness” of it all, as if the notion of “being on time” is entirely foreign. That sort of self-centered position something one would expect from a child, but not an MBA student.
You might be comfortable permitting students to waste the time of those who chose to value their education and show up on time for class; this professor is not. And more power to him.
The student certainly did not have a good reason to interrupt a class one hour in.
I especially like the part where the student suggests that his/her tardiness is MORE acceptable, because he/she was an hour late, not just ten minutes. There’s some sound logic for you…
The professor could have simply stated his adherence to the late rule that they have. It would have been professional and better met. There was no need to give the student ‘life advice’.
It just seems like the prof is stroking his ego and is using the guise of intelligent articulation to bash on this student. The ‘life advice’ he is giving just seems to be the scape-goat for his abuse.
And really, the student was not that rude or disrespectful in his/her e-mail. There was no cynicism or bad nature in that tone of the e-mail. I can’t say the same for the professor.
Of course the student wasn’t rude. She was a female trying to sound all “sweet” to the professor, so he would coddle to her needs.
I thought we already established that the student was male. Keep your gendered, narrow interpretations to yourself, man.
The student was a man. Sorry, “male.”
also ‘coddle to her needs’? amazing
A tenured professor (Assoc., Full) can say this, and he is speaking the truth. Although, he should have MET in person with the student rather than posted an email. His message is right but his method was not the best.
An un-tenured professor (Assistant, Adjunct, Lecturer) can NO LONGER say things like this. The Asst. Professor, out for tenure, must coddle and go all out to make life easy for students. This helps ensure the professor’s student evaluations are good and does not disrupt the tenure process. Sadly, clueless students doing class sampling, fall through the cracks, until they have a cold bucket of reality thrown on them. Often in their first job. Too late!
This professor did the dope a favor and probably everyone in the class too (who also got the message). Be serious, which means doing your research BEFORE you go to the first class. Otherwise, just stay away and don’t disrupt the first class.
I was a college professor for 35 years. I might have written something like what Prof. Galloway wrote when I was in my thirties and still full of my own sh*t. Under the circumstances (as described above–MBA program etc.) I think he set a poor business model by *creating” a problem via confrontation unnecessarily where there was none. To compare what the student did with urinating and so forth is rude and self-centered in its own right. (I say this in full agreement with those who finger the problem of rude behavior in classes, especially undergrad. classes, which can be all too like what I used to associate with junior high schools.)
My class is not for shopping. You want to “shop,” call on me during office hours and chat before class. Email and ask for a copy of my syllabus. Read the course description in the catalog or on my website. Don’t interrupt my class an hour late and act like it’s my fault. “(1) there is no way I could have been aware of your policy.” Not only do you not apologize for your interruption, you have the audacity to “provide my opinion on the matter.” You’re not my student. You didn’t care enough to show up on time. You failed to invest in the class by emailing me or request a syllabus, and you have the gall to provide your opinion? You’re damn right I’m going to publicly shame you, you self-righteous twit.
And for anyone criticizing the professor for being immature or too mean, you’re part of the problem. It’s your coddling and lack of respect that allows this student to be a raging d-bag. Good lord.
Professor Muffkateer presume? Regardless, if what you’re teaching is some bullshit business course, I’m not buying that someone stepping in, or out of your class suddenly ruins the experience for everyone, especially on the first day of class. Don’t project your self-importance into the activities of a classroom, and don’t lecture anyone else about manners and humility when given thoughtful feedback. “My class is not for shopping.” No shit, cause apparently it’s to boost your overly large ego about the insight you’re providing. And frankly, I wouldn’t want to shop, let alone have any association with the shit show of your “business” knowledge if what you’re offering is how to run an online gift store or flim-flam branding/research companies. Let’s hope Stern recognizes the snake oil salesman you seem to be and hustles you out for interrupting people getting an education.
P.S. Love the dress. Hope you win! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/uk_dressed_to_kilt/html/1.stm
It’s not about “ruining the learning experience,” it’s about RESPECT. This professor has already been through school, and deserves to be respected by his students, and interrupting class by walking in an hour late is highly disrespectful.
But what can you expect this day in time? People think they have the right to blatantly disrespect someone, but don’t you DARE retaliate if you’re the person being disrespected.
Apparently Stern has a period of shopping classes. Maybe it’s not usual to experience three classes in an evening, but the class meets only once a week and the shopping period is what, two weeks at most? Really the fault is Stern’s. If the school has a shopping period, they need to have some guidelines that accompany if it ties in with their tardiness policy. That said though, the kid was nothing less than respectful, presumptuous but respectful, and I don’t get the impression from either the initial email or the response him showing up late was really the issue but more the fuss Galloway made to refused him entry. I’ve had my fill of holier than though professors who demand undue respect simply because I have no choice but them as the teacher of any particular subject (in music no less where egos often rule over teaching talent). The kid is lucky though to not deal with Galloway nor waste his time on “brand strategy.”
The very idea of a ‘shopping’ period is ludicrous. Either take the damn class or not. I’m appalled that students now need to see a syllabus prior to registering for a course – as if they are in any position to adequately judge the worth or quality of that class. What they are truly doing is seeing which one offers the lighter load – affording the more free ‘me’ time to do as they damn well please. This new generation of college student is virtually worthless.
“I’m appalled that students now need to see a syllabus prior to registering for a course – as if they are in any position to adequately judge the worth or quality of that class.”
And I suppose, since students clearly qualified to make decisions about what they’re interested in learning, we should just do away with elective courses.
I don’t get why many here are so quick to say that NYU has a “shopping period.” If this were true — which I sincerely doubt — then certainly there would have been 5 other students showing up late to this class, too. My guess is that perhaps there is a trend among students at NYU to do this, but that doesn’t mean that the faculty have to allow it. Yes, one student walking in an hour late doesn’t destroy the whole class. But if you allow it, then having students walking in and out of classes at will certainly could. Also, the student walking in is likely going to have no idea what is going on, which often results in asking questions that were covered 45 minutes ago. While you might think that the first day of class is reserved for going over the syllabus, the fact that class was still going on an hour after it began indicates that this professor actually wanted to get to real content on day one. Gasp!
If the prof really objected to the interruption in his perfectly calibrated lecture, he shows it in a funny way by making a point of kicking the student out, which was far more disruptive than simply letting her sit down and then speaking to her one-on-one afterwards. He was trying to make a point and he did it, but at the same time he showed a sense of entitlement that he should be ashamed of. As to the student’s behavior, when I was an undergraduate at an Ivy League school in the ’60s, we always sampled lecture classes the first week — what’s the big deal? I’m an English professor now, and I would have no trouble with anyone attending part of my first class in a lecture course (as opposed to a seminar). This prof has a problem.
I don’t attend NYU, so I legitimately don’t know the answer to this question: does NYU officially designate the first week of classes as a “shopping” week? If it doesn’t, the professor probably didn’t assume that that’s why the student was late.
In any case, the “shopping” student should plan to attend a full class period of each of the classes he/she is considering so as to judge them on the same criteria, compare syllabi, etc. There’s usually an add/drop period during the first week of classes, but to me that’s more of a safety valve than a shopping period (i.e., a way for a student to change his/her mind about a class as opposed to a way to make a decision).
I’m not a professor, but as far as the lecture goes if it were an “Intro to ___” course and the student were a freshman or a sophomore I would think that the professor was out of line; however, the student is a 2010 MBA candidate—a graduate student. This student has successfully (on some level) been to college before and should be aware of NYU’s codes of conduct. There’s a lot of entitlement on both sides.
I live in the East Village — or what used to be called the East Village and now is increasingly becoming NYU Campus East. I wish this professor, that student, and every spoiled punk and elitist teacher from that place would just get over themselves entirely. And, hasn’t it pretty much been shown in recent years that acquiring an MBA is no guarantee of business success — and, in many cases, the rigorous memorization of useless shit some professor deems worthy might actually make one less suited to being an entreprenurial leader?
There is a great deal of wisdom in this professor’s response! I was a professor for 25 years.
Dave
I can obviously understand how it was rude for the student to enter the classroom an hour late on the first day of class. But as previous posts have said, the student wanted to see which class was the best fit. And that does not necessarily mean what teacher seems the easiest and will give you an A. I don’t think one can foresee that on the first day. It’s a difficult situation all around. The student feels obligated to view three different classes. The professor most likely has a huge ego, and thoroughly enjoyed replying back to the student. Anyways I understand from a student’s viewpoint. If I’m paying $60,000 a year to go to NYU then I want a class that interests me, but also an interesting and energetic professor. I can’t even count the number of times that I have had dull, uninteresting, monotone professors at NYU. That is precisely why I can understand attending three different classes IF that was the student’s reasoning.
If the student were that invested in the quality of his/her class experience, s/he could have emailed the professors whose classes s/he planned to shop in advance, and either scheduled when s/he could attend or met with the profs in advance. Not hard.
If you’re paying $60,000 a year, then I think you can put in a bit more effort to research the courses and the faculty than trying to speed date them to see which fits best.
Also, to TRULY understand from a student’s point of view would be to take into account all the other students who are also paying $60,000 a year whose class times were interrupted by this one student.
I agree that shopping doesn’t necessarily correlate to finding the easiest class, but the way the student went about shopping leaves much to be desired. This student isn’t a college freshmen, but an MBA student. As part of the advanced planning the student did to decide which three classes to shop, did the student not stop for one second and think, “hmm…I should probably email the professors for these classes and tell them of my intention to attend a portion of all three on the first night.” The entire situation could have been solved with a simple email (or phone call in advance), but instead the student decided to assume no one would mind.
“party jerkface”
Does no one edit anymore?
This.
Right?
Thank you!! It must be some sort of hipster irony to write a blog about entitlement and getting your sh*t together for the sake of professionalism and then have a bolded typo in the second sentence?
This professor is clearly a psychopath. Who uses someone’s name that many times in an e-mail?
LFMAO
That’s bullshit. It’s a shopping period for classes. That’s how shopping period works.
Shopping periods work by walking into whatever class you want? Not when I went to college.
Where in this article does it state that NYU-Stern has a shopping period for MBA courses? Not every university has a shopping period. None of the three I attended did. Regardless, the shopping isn’t the issue, but rather the assumptions made by the student and the reaction of the student to having his/her assumptions challenged.
I think its BS. Unless the students entry significantly disrupted class (other than the professor stopping class to reprimand the student) there is absolutely no reason to have a policy like this. The student pays A LOT of money to attend the school. The student is the customer here. If they’re late, its their choice and will almost certainly cause them to not do well in the class. Honestly (and I know this may be a bit unprofessional of me) but if I were that student, I would have found the professor later and told them off or completely ignored the professors request to leave in the first place. It may be a privilege to attend such a prestigious university but it is an earned and PAID FOR privilege and the professor should understand this.
“A bit unprofessional”? No, more like fucking stupid. You paying tuition doesn’t entitle you to a “The customer’s always right” situation. Seriously? By that logic, you bought your car, so who are the police to tell you you’re breaking the rules? The next time they try, you’ll just tell them off, right?
Right?
Idiot.
What about all the other “customers” that were in the “store”? They have no right to the educational experience they’re paying for?
To further your logic, don’t stores have the right to refuse service, such as being a disruption or even failing to abide by a certain dress code (ie – jacket required for some restaurants, “no shoes no service”, etc)?
Here, we have yet another individual who thinks that money gives him the right to do as he pleases. Rich kids sicken me.
The only justification for the teacher’s behavior is that it’s disruptive to the class if someone comes in late. But was it really less disruptive to throw the student out? Coming in late is distracting for, what, 20 seconds? Throwing the student out not only probably took just as much time, but it probably took a few minutes for the students to put the incident out of their minds and get back into the mindset of the class material. Then he sends this email to everyone. All the professor cared about is his ego.
First day. Set a tone or deal with it the rest of the semester.
The professor isn’t responding to the student’s lateness. The professor’s email is in response to the student’s voicing of his/her opinion that it was unfair to be denied entry into the class. It’s the “But officer, I didn’t know it was against the law” situation. According to his email, upon the late arrival, the professor told the student that he/she would have to come to the next section of the class (an ENTIRELY legitimate request). It does not sound like the professor got bent out of shape about the student arriving late — the comments below are where the “ruining the educational experience for the other ‘customers'” bit started off. Student came in late, was refused entry, emailed the professor with what comes across as a falsely respectful message about the unfairness of being told to attend a different section, and the professor responded to that. A bit over the top? Yeah, probably. Did it get the point across? I suspect so.
We pay $40,000 + a year… we can come into class late if we need to. It’s not like attending NYU is some free privilidge that we are so honored to have. WE PAY SO MUCH MONEY TO GO TO CLASS, and it’s just a class. So, if we need to walk in late for whatever personal reason, then LET IT BE. The teacher can then politely address the student about his or her tardiness and then the student can apologize and get it right next time. Without the students, there is no school. Better yet, without our money, pay checks aren’t issued. Professor Galloway has obviously gone mad, and professional conduct is so far out the window. We sure enough don’t pay tution for this kind of stuff. Nobody got time for that!!
“Nobody got time for that!” And you attend NYU? You sound like a spoiled little brat who thinks that rules shouldn’t apply to you because your parents paid your tuition. Good luck in life, I think you’re going to need it.
thanks.. I’m going to be alright.
May I ask you Sigma…why you are so mad about this? I see you’ve commented on several posts calling people idiots and cursing.
Are you freaking kidding me? So, the rules don’t apply to you because you “pay tuition”? What about those of us who have to rely on financial aid because neither us nor our parents can afford the cost of tuition? Do we have the same right to show up to class late? Of course not, because we’re not a bunch of rich kids flaunting mommy and daddy’s money who think there are no consequences for actions.
thanks for your response. no need to be rude. I appreciate my education and I’ve learned to speak to people respectfully. Unfortunately, we have collectively (as everybody’s behavior is currently demonstrating including the student and the professor) forgotten how to speak to people that we don’t know. I’m sorry that you have the audacity to speak to me in the way you do without even knowing me. Have a great day. Same to you Spartan112 and Bluecat
thank you for your response. no need to be rude.
Arriving late is impolite, yet you expect the professor to be nothing but polite? The professor has a policy. He stuck to it. Good for him. Instead of apologizing for the interruption the student chose to justify their behavior and got an email full from the prof. I’ll bet they don’t do it again. Lesson learned.
thanks for your response. no need to be rude.
I was rude?
I’m a former college professor who now works in the business world. If you were late for my class (small 25-30 students) I have to pause while you get seated and situated because your activity creates noise which disrupts my lecture. The class loses 5-10 minutes with a late entrance. That is why anyone more than 15 minutes late is marked absent and not allowed to enter the classroom. This is especially problematic when we had tests or quizzes. In the business world, our conference room door is locked 5 minutes after the scheduled meeting start time. Anyone more than 5 minutes late to a meeting is marked absent, regardless of excuse, even if it is 4:00 a.m. in your time zone and you had a flat tire while rushing your wife to the ER on the way to work, you were absent and unable to enter if you arrived at 4:06 a.m. The professor is giving the student a reality check on the real world. Do you really want to learn something for your $40,000.00? It is right there in the Professor’s letter. Don’t take anything for granted. Don’t act like you are entitled just because you are paying for it. Respect authority and the hierarchy of the system. Always check first (do the research). Mind your manners. And get your s**t together.
thanks for your response. no need to be rude
Fully agree. The argument that because I paid to be there and attend the university entitles me to show up to a class whenever I want is idiotic. Besides, if what you’re after is an education, it seems that that letter provides one hell of a lesson. I do agree however that decorum does go in both direction and found it tacky for the prof to CC the entire class in the correspondance (which to my understanding is what he did).
My response is to Nicole Johnson, not to you, Anonymous. I hold nothing against your comment. I paid my own way through college, working two jobs and on scholarships.
“Anyone more than 5 minutes late to a meeting is marked absent, regardless of excuse, even if it is 4:00 a.m. in your time zone and you had a flat tire while rushing your wife to the ER on the way to work, you were absent and unable to enter if you arrived at 4:06 a.m.”
I am so incredibly glad I do not work for you. Life is too short to spend it working for bullies who fly off the handle and have no sense of proportionality, even around emergencies. What do you do if one of your employees needs to visit the restroom during a meeting while the door is locked? Make them raise their hand and request a hall pass?
privilidge? NYU? I don’t buy it.
privilidge
“privilidge”? NYU? Oh dear. I’m not sure I buy it.
Hi – as a graduate student and a teacher myself, I take issue with your statement.
However, I do agree with one point you make – professional conduct IS important, and I do not believe that this professor acted professionally when he sent this to all of his students to prove a point, simply removing the name. There are ways for people to figure out who that student is, and that could be very damaging (see my post below for further reasoning).
Still, the response to the student’s email is within his rights as a professor. What this student did was incredibly rude – no matter what he pays in tuition, this is disrespectful to the professor, his course preparation, and his teaching. Mind that the professor ALSO paid thousands of dollars and boundless amounts of time to have earned his job (most professors must attain their doctorate or be on their way to it in order to teach at the collegiate level – lots of tuition dollars being spent there). Just because we pay copious sums of money to go to school doesn’t mean that we should do whatever suits us at the moment. We are considered adults and held to higher expectations, as such. Please bear in mind that professional conduct does not apply solely to professors.
I’m sorry, anyone who has spent a significant time applying for business school at least at the top schools should know that lecture is treated differently. Lecture for business school isn’t a 600 person science class you took Freshman year of undergrad where you mindlessly take notes.
These are smaller, highly participative classes and the mean age is 26-29 (meaning folks who are more mature and responsible than when they were 19). I believe strict tardiness policies are quite common for most business school classes.
I find it bizarre any student would think arriving an hour late is acceptable even when auditing courses is allowed.
The professor has forgotten who he is working for…maybe he should enroll in a course on client relations. Agree with Chris that it’s far more disruptive to make a scene out of a student arriving into lecture late than simply letting them sit down. Heaven forbid any of his students ever needing to use the bathroom mid-lecture!!! Ridiculous.
The Professor works for the school, not the student.
And what are the major sources of revenue for a private school such as NYU that are used to pay the professors salary and benefits, genius? Tuition from current students and monetary gifts from alumni. I’m very sorry to have to spell it out for you.
Not ridiculous. Right on target. If this kid were an hour late to my class, I wouldn’t have been so kind as to write her an e-mail. I would have eviscerated her in front of her peers before I sent her packing and out the door. She would have thought a long time before doing this again to some other professor – and worse – to all the other students whose educations were interrupted by her appalling hubris.
Buddy, you need HELP.
You sir, are a bully. I encourage you to check your hubris and focus on doing your job instead of dressing down everybody who bothers you.
“appalling hubris.” Oh get the fuck over yourself. In your hypothetical situation where you berate a college kid into oblivion (a fantasy I’m sure you have daily) it would be you doing the disrupting, not the student. When someone walks in late, people look up for a grand total of about 1 second, then return focus towards whatever it was they were doing. It was also very telling that the professor in this story chose to cc his email to the entire class not the offending student. Dicks of a feather flock together.
This is a prime misconception. The professors work for the school and that relationship is partly about the students and their tuition, but it’s also about the research, writing, and academic contribution a professor makes to the overall institution. They aren’t there to serve students like waitstaff where the customer is always right. To imply that someone who likely has studied to earn a PhD and managed to get tenure at a university works for the student is insulting to those who reached that level of academia. The student is paying to receive an education, network with professors and other students, and to get the benefit of being associated with the prestige of the institution. A graduate degree is like an apprenticeship in the discipline. Show up on time and learn the ropes. Regardless of what you’ve paid, you’re not just entitled to be there or there wouldn’t be an admissions process. The rigor of the environment adds to the value of the degree. Otherwise, you can take classes online in your pajamas from a school that advertises during Jerry Springer.
YES. EPIC!
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I can’t believe this student had the audacity to offer ‘feedback’ to the professor, in a situation where he was clearly at fault. Audacity and stupidity.
If he/she was among the few who were actually seated in the class and taking it seriously, he/she would have taken offence at a presumptuous idiot who thinks he/she can walk into a class anytime and disturb the flow, without any respect for other people’s time AND money.
I go to a business school, and pay almost three dollars per minute of lecture time. I don’t want to spend that money to listen to someone shuffle around and creating a ruckus, I’d rather listen to the prof or my classmates and learn something.
Some people just need to be put in their place. Hopefully, he’ll learn from it, as will others.
Since everyone else on this post has been called “sexist,” I might as well join the bandwagon. Honestly, if this were a male student, very few people would be taking his side. However, since he said “get your shit together” to an emotional female and hurt her precious little feelings, he now gets vilified for telling the truth.
But the student is a male student. “You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on his laptop. ”
His = male.
To add: funnily enough, people are vilifying/treating the student as an emotional female when they criticise him. That is a kind of sexism, isn’t it?
It’s interesting that no one who thought the student was male wrote, “Ugh, typical irresponsible, emotional man, male students sure do suck,” whereas lots of people who thought the student was female saw it as an opportunity to rail about “her” entire gender.
Whatever it is that makes Professor Galloway feel the need to respond to this email, he really needn’t on xxxx’s account .
Tell the prof you pay him to teach you and you can sample however many classes you want.
Yeah, let me know how that works out for you when the prof fails you. Unless you name is somewhere on his check you don’t pay him.
End of the day, it sure seems like it sucks to go to a school without a shopping period.
Doanie, Great post. We plan on writing a blog piece on this subject at our test prep blog, http://toptestprep.com/blog Thanks again.
Awesome response! Go Prof!! Perhaps the name of the school should have been taken a little more literally….STERN. 😉
ba-dum-chhhh 🙂
Sounds like a professor who teaches a useless class has a little too much self-importance.
I believe that both the professor and student are at fault. The student for not emailing the professor beforehand to make sure it was alright for him or her to do this, and the professor for answering in such a way.
As stated in many posts above, the student clearly was trying to defend him or herself and give an excuse to why he/she was late. However he/she was clearly in the fault for coming in an hour late regardless of the situation. He/she does not apologize in the email but only gives an explanation. Also, the student claims to be ignorant to the rule, but ignorance of a rule or law does not give exemption of it. I have read that the student was an MBA candidate, although I did not notice this myself, this means that the student has gone through at least 4 years of school at an accredited college or university therefore giving him or her at least some knowledge or insight into the standards of tardiness in a classroom.
I believe that the professor was also rude in the response that he gives. It is true that it was only the first day of classes so what information could he really have that would have been so important other than the explaining of the class, subject, and or syllabus. Granted this does not give students an excuse to be so late. I also agree that the professor did not have to forward the email to every one else in the class. It was a childish thing for the professor to do. Instead he could have emailed the student back and left it at that, and perhaps in a less condescending but more conducive way.
Uh, how about if shopping around for classes was the typical, “normal”, thing to do at the student’s undergrad or previous grad school? Both schools that I’ve had the luxury of attending, one an Ivy, ENCOURAGED students to do this. Honestly, the only thing I found disrespectful was the professor’s response! That just screams – ENTITLEMENT! “I am the Professor; whatever I say, goes. PERIOD.” In situations like these, I would go to the Dean of Students, like the Generation Y’er that I am, file a complaint, and share my experience with my fellow classmates, encouraging NOT to register for this class. (ARE YOU KIDDING ME – on top of paying $50k+ to attend, you have to deal with this kind of bs on your first day…)
You are an idiot. And I, went to Oxford.
LOL!! What an awesome response! LOL!
“I am the Professor; whatever I say, goes. PERIOD.”
But that’s how these student/professor relationships work. If you take a class, the professor agrees to give you the opportunity to demonstrate your understanding of relevant course material, and you agree to work within the structure that the professor has pre-determined for doing so. It’s not entitlement, as you say, it’s the nature of the interaction.
Love this response. What person thinks it’s okay to just stroll into class an hour late, and then have the audacity to get upset about the professor not just accepting that? I mean really, three classes in one time slot. He was on point with his response.
Ignoring the issues of possible rudeness, entitlement, etc., just by considering the logic exhibited by the student’s words: “it was more probable that my tardiness was due to my desire to sample different classes rather than sheer complacency.”, this student should not have been accepted into Stern’s MBA program.
[To sample different classes is one possible explanation among a VERY large number of other (even more plausible) explanations, therefore the probability of guessing that his/her tardiness was due to the desire to sample classes is practically zero]
It’s a good idea to sample multiple classes before committing to any of them, but its implementation was lacking. Anyone, who has ever given a lecture, knows, that interruptions are deadly, so I can relate to the Professor’s reaction.
A better way of sampling different lectures might have been to go to each lecture for the full length. This even has the benefit of seeing if the respective prof makes it easy (possible) for one to get up to speed after a missed lecture.
Why not contact the professors beforehand, as professor emails are able to be publicly found on most school websites? Or talk to people who took the class? There are other resources to be used, here.
I’ve taught a ton of classes. I don’t think anyone notices if someone slips quitely into or out of the classroom, assuming, of course, that the lecture is interesting.
[…] The rest of the article (including the letter from the student and the professor’s response) are found here. […]
Sorry folks….I’m in with the Professor on this one. I love this response, and wish that all of academia were lock and step with this guy.
In my experience, a professor who stops his class to chide a student who walks in late is almost always more distruptive than the student walking into class late. It speaks more to the professor’s sense of self-importance than the student’s rudeness (for the most part).
That said, the student was an idiot for sending that email to the professor, and the prof. was equally dumb in sending his response to the whole class. As a student, I’m not interested in teachers who are looking to “send a message” to their students about respecting the class. IMO, this professor needs to get his sh!t together as much as the student.
I can’t believe how many people in these comments seem to think that the student “had it coming.” I am graduating in a few weeks, and while I would not usually bother coming to class if I was going to be more than 15 minutes late, the first day of class is typically pretty messy as far as scheduling goes. There are students in the wrong classroom, students missing from the roster because they registered late, and students who come in late to class. I understand the professor’s frustrations, and likewise the frustrations of many of you who are educators or who were undergraduates many years ago. I also understand that NYU has a strict 15 minute policy, but I still just do not believe the professor was justified in his outrageously rude email. It would have been very easy to politely inform the student of the university’s policy and the professor’s right to adhere to it. All of the verbal bashing and cruel remarks implying that the student is an idiot is not going to teach the student anything except that professors hate students and they are not willing to communicate openly and respectfully. I think we need to re-evaluate who was the disrespectful one here.
This is great. $50k tuition isn’t a price you pay to behave however you feel. It’s a privilege to attend college. Not a right. I agree with the professor. This student probably won’t do this again. And rightfully so. Nice work prof.
its the first day of classes…. 50k gives me the right to make sure my investment is the right one by checking out which classes I like however I see fit.
This professor proved you wrong.
Yes, good luck with that. You can believe this, but don’t be surprised when it doesn’t work out for you.
I think you’re forgetting that you ought to use that right responsibly – like the professor was saying.
He publicly shamed her with that forward, taking a private correspondance without permission into a public one. This was a poor choice from someone in a position of power compared to someone with none. He is a very small man.
Agreed on all accounts. I believe his actions and the manner of his response show more about his own personal problems than the obvious immaturity of the student.
^what this person said
According to the Deadspin source, he might not have been the one to forward it to his class – his TA might have done it without his knowing.
Much of the discussion in this thread has focused on the “rights” of the other students, mainly that they deserve the full attention of the professor and need not be disturbed by a tardy student. While this is true, given that all the students, including the tardy one, pay that teacher’s salary, I submit this question:
Is it more or less disturbing (i.e. more of less of an infringement on their rights) to have a student quietly enter a class late and take a seat in the back, or to have a professor voluntarily stop his lecture, focus his sole attention on a single student, and derail whatever learning was going on in that lecture hall?
Of course, from the information we are given, we have no way to know if (s)he was loud or obnoxious in his/her tardiness, but nevertheless, I find it disingenuous of Prof. Galloway to lecture this student on decorum, manners, and “all the basics” while obviously failing to have a grasp on them himself.
Furthermore, it is very clear that, while hiding behind the facade of “slapping some sense” into this student, Galloway is egotistical, solipsistic, and arrogant.
A. There was nothing to be gained, other than his own aggrandizement, from sending this email to the entire class (regardless of whether or not the student’s name was xxx-ed out)
B. Look at his language: “You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on his laptop.” – Galloway is unnecessarily condescending, and takes a mocking tone.
C. “your logic effectively means you cannot be held accountable for any code of conduct before taking a class” – If the student actually believed that, (s)he would not have taken the time to compose an email in the first place, nor would (s)he have left the class upon Galloway’s request.
While it may be personally annoying to him that a student is tardy, this is a fundamentally different scenario than an employee being late to work, as others have suggested. In that situation, the employer pays the employee to provide a service that creates value for the company, and is commensurately compensated. However, in the situation between Galloway and the student, Galloway is the essentially the employee, and the student is the employer. After all, is it not the student’s tuition dollars that pay his salary? If this student chooses to be stupid and misuse the service for which (s)he is paying, then it is his/her prerogative, regardless of how ill advised it may be.
A- Plenty was gained. It will be a long time before another student makes a “pit stop” in one of his classes.
B- This student needed to be mocked after assuming that the prof should know (or care) that they were sampling classes.
C- Who in their right mind would think showing up to a class one hour late would be ok?
And no, the students dollars do not pay his tuition. The school does. He is not the employee of the student, education is not a service industry. The classroom is the realm of the teacher, students are guests (and hopefully participants). The instructor makes the rules.
“education is not a service industry”
YES. This.
Had i blundered into finding myself on the recieving end of this email from professor galloway, my only responsive action would be to reply to the email “thank you for taking the time to reply to my email professor. Regards, xxxxx”
However, i must say i disagree with the professors chioce to make this dialogue public. I believe that was in poor taste.
Agreed, Joseph. That’s my big issue with this whole debacle. It is not professional, and simply taking out the name does not preserve anonymity.
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It’s business school. What do you expect? Takes no talent and no ability…
The professor is just whiny and cranky because he doesn’t get paid as much and his students may go on to make more than him.
I am a university professor, and my only criticism is this: had I chosen to write the email (and I probably wouldn’t have bothered to), I would not have copied the entire class. It was one student who needed the lesson, not the entire class. As to the situation itself, a few things need to be said.
First, the student was entirely wrong. If they wanted to get more of an idea of the content of the class or the professor’s personality, they had a responsibility to approach each of the professors before the semester began and feel them out in person. Additionally, this was a graduate student, and a higher standard is expected of graduate students. If someone can’t cope with the higher expectations, drop out.
Second, this whole deal about students being customers is, frankly, bullshit. You do not pay my salary. The university pays my salary. Some of you need to learn that not everything in life can be reduced to business terms. This is not a business. This is a school. I am not trying to sell you a product. You are not a customer. You are a student. I am trying to educate you. You are paying for an opportunity. You are paying for the opportunity to say, “I have x degree.” This does not guarantee that doors will open. It does guarantee that some doors will not automatically close. If you don’t like those terms, go flip burgers for a while and see if those terms don’t become dramatically more attractive. If this sounds arrogant, too bad. It’s not personal. It’s academic.
Additionally, even if the comparison to business was valid, anyone with a speck of life experience knows that the customer is not always right. If you act inappropriately in virtually any business, you will be shown the door, because there are plenty of other customers who are willing to conform to proper behavior. I worked as a bookstore manager in a mall to help finance my education, and one time, a group of teenagers came into the store cursing loudly. There were younger kids and their parents in there. I asked the teenagers to tone down the language, and they immediately turned smartass. I threw them out of the store. They stood outside the store and yelled things. I called mall security, and they got banned from the mall. The other customers applauded it. Generally, in a business, you don’t get to act disruptive.
Third, as a corollary to the second point: the classroom isn’t a student’s classroom, it’s my classroom. Students aren’t in charge, and they dictate nothing. I care very much about the success and welfare of my students, but I’m the one running the show. It’s my expertise, which I have earned, that you’re trying to tap into. A college professor may teach you about democracy, but we’re not here to practice it. You do have some choices. You can choose to not go to school. If you choose to go to school, if you work hard enough, you can choose your school. When you get into school, you can choose your major, your classes, and your professors. When you enter my classroom, however, the choices are mine. Don’t like that? Choose someone else. They will most likely offer you the same thing. Don’t like that? Choose another school. Or choose to flip burgers. Your only alternatives, frankly, besides a degree, learning a skilled trade (and I have a great deal of respect for electricians, plumbers, and mechanics, who have acquired expertise I don’t have), are doing an unskilled job, winning the lottery, or being born Paris Hilton. Best of luck with the latter two.
My job is to disseminate the information that the syllabus says I’ll cover, and, to the best of my ability, present it in such a fashion that maximizes learning for the maximum number of students. Being interrupted by an idiot who’s “sampling” classes disrupts my ability to do that job. You think you’re special? If you’re my student, you are. But so are the rest of the students in the classroom, and you’re not more special than the rest of the class. When you interfere with their ability to learn, you are going to suffer some sort of consequence.
Fourth, part of getting along in life involves knowing your role. If you’re an employee, you don’t sass the boss, or anyone above you. Until you make it to the top, you’d better show respect to the people in charge of you. It takes a long time for anyone to work their way to the top. I am not at the top. I defer to my department chair, my dean, the provost, any vice-presidents, or the president, and if they find fault with my teaching or my actions, I get my butt in line, because I’d rather keep my job than not. If you’re a student, you’re beneath me in the pecking order, and you’d better realize that. I will treat you with respect, but if you egregiously violate my rules, you are history. Like any reasonable boss or manager, I do not apply rules with zero tolerance. I am willing to make concessions for reasonable circumstances, because I am not a tyrant. But you need to know your role. This student obviously didn’t.
I think anyone who defends the student is an idiot. I think anyone who defends the student on the basis of being a “customer” is an even bigger idiot. I think the prof took it a bit far. I probably would have just rolled my eyes over it, and laughed about what a dumbass the kid was with other faculty.
That was blunt, blatant but brutally (and necessarily) honest. Never quite thought of school in those terms but I agree. What bothers me the most is the sense of entitlement that students have with regards to their education, seeing it as a right and not what it truly is – a privilege. By the time you’re in university, one would assume you’re an adult. It’s time to act like one, with all the inherent responsibilities within including showing up on time. Kudos.
Virtually every person that has commented on the article has acknowledged (including myself), that the student acted poorly, lacked manners, and certainly has a high degree of immaturity. No one (or almost no one) is defending the actions of the student.
Some, including myself, are merely condemning the professor for his unprofessional actions unbecoming of an educator, and his condescension.
“this whole deal about students being customers is, frankly, bullshit. You do not pay my salary. The university pays my salary. Some of you need to learn that not everything in life can be reduced to business terms. This is not a business. This is a school. I am not trying to sell you a product.” – To be blunt, nearly everything contained in that statement is patently false.
Schools are businesses, multi-million dollar businesses, at that. Education is a service, a service for which students (or their parents, or the government, or some combination of the three) pay. As a professor, the university hires you, and continues to pay you, on the basis that you fulfill your duty as a purveyor of information (or that you do research, which the university will publish and produce revenue from).
This is an oversimplification, but the basic premise stands. However, I do agree, that by paying tuition, the student also agrees to what is contained in their student handbook, i.e. they must abide by certain set of rules, or else they will face consequences. Attending class on time may be one of them. Or it may not be.
At many high level universities, including the one which I attended, it was entirely routine for students to show up on the first day, for the midterm, and for the final, and none of the classes in between. Many of those students were some of the most intelligent, well read, and high scoring students I ever had the pleasure of meeting.
“It’s my expertise, which I have earned, that you’re trying to tap into.” – This is the exact attitude which Galloway displayed, and is exactly why many people have such a disdain for professors.
No one invented money, power or knowledge. Especially you. You do not have a monopoly on information. Anything that you teach could be learned by an avid reader at a local library.
Students pay you to facilitate their learning process, and hopefully, gain access to a piece of paper that will allow them to embark on successful careers. Your arrogance is an insult to all professors, and is an insult to any student you have ever taught.
Gianni,
I teach in the arts. Do you think you could pick up the knowledge I provide my students at the local library?
Unfortunately, you’re very wrong on several counts. One of them is easy to rebut. There are comments on here defending the student. Simply read.
The other requires a little more. Schools are not businesses. The most basic point of a business is to make money. The most basic point of a university is to educate, not to make money, and that inherently makes it NOT A BUSINESS. It takes infrastructure and people to carry out the mission of a university, and that’s what costs money. There are “for-profit universities.” For instance, the “University of Phoenix.” These “universities” are invariably poor at what they do because their primary motivation is profit, not education. Or do you think that the “University of Phoenix” is comparable with your alma mater?
Comparing a university to a business just because it takes a lot of money to run is as invalid as comparing the military to a business because it takes a lot of money to run. You benefit from the military. You, however, are not the customer of the military, and you don’t get to walk onto a base and tell a Marine what to do simply because your tax dollars contribute to the military. You don’t pay a lieutenant’s salary, and s/he doesn’t answer to you. In the same sense, you are not the customer of a university, and you don’t get to walk onto a campus and dictate what goes on there, either.
Additionally, tuition is not, in many cases, the main driver of a university’s finances. Federal funding, federal grant funding, state funding, and donations play major roles in funding universities. Therefore, students do not pay my salary. They certainly do not DIRECTLY pay my salary. The customer-business analogy could not be much more inapt. Or inept, for that matter.
Your point regarding students’ attendance is irrelevant. If there was an attendance policy for the classes in question, those students would have attended, or failed. I don’t have an attendance policy in lecture because I don’t have to. They’re smart enough to know they can’t skip classes and do well in this one. I have an attendance policy in lab because my course is very high-demand, and the limiter is lab spaces. When I have to turn students away from class because I can’t fit them into lab, the ones who were lucky enough to get in had damn well better attend. Additionally, it is not a model for success in any classroom, and it is certainly not in mine. While I’m sure you enjoyed your time with these absentee students, and their intrinsic worth is certainly not dictated by their class attendance, I can guarantee you that there were certainly classes that they dared not miss.
It IS my expertise that students are trying to tap into. Absolutely. It’s my knowledge of the material, which I’ve worked very hard to acquire, and my ability to communicate it in a reasonable and understandable fashion, which I’ve also worked very hard to acquire, that students are trying to benefit from. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking pride in how hard I’ve worked, and how good I’ve gotten at my job because of that. Would you get your hackles up at a mechanic who worked his ass off for years and became great at it, who said, “I’m a damn good mechanic because I’ve worked at it, and you want your car fixed right, you bring it to me”? If you do, then there’s something wrong with you, not the mechanic. Just because I teach, and I’m good at it, doesn’t mean I have to assume an air of false humility for everyone else.
If anything I teach could easily be learned by avid readers, there would be no such profession as teaching. There would be only libraries. Really, what a stupid comment. Virtually everyone, in the course of reading for information, runs into something that they simply cannot understand on their own, and has to have someone explain it to them in a clear fashion, which is where teaching comes in. I’ve had many very intelligent students tell me that they couldn’t understand information out of their textbooks, but it all came clear because I knew how to use the right analogy, or used examples from outside the textbook. While you may be extraordinarily intelligent, and able to immediately and easily acquire any knowledge you read, that would make you a very rare exception. I am well aware that I do not have a monopoly on knowledge. I don’t just bring knowledge to the table. I bring experience, and I bring the ability to connect prior knowledge to new knowledge in an interactive fashion. You do not find all of those in a library.
Every semester, I have a significant percentage of students ask if I teach other classes because I care very much about them as individuals as well as students, I work very hard at what I do, and I constantly strive to become better at what I do. I admit when I make mistakes (and every teacher does). I apologize for them, and I correct them, because the most important thing is the learning, not my ego. I invite questions. I am able to answer most of them. Some I can’t. When I can’t, I say it, and then go find the answer. I am very patient with my students. I will single students out for praise publicly. I criticize strictly in private, and when I do, I address the issue, not insult the student. My students know that I require them to conform to a certain standard of conduct, and they also know that I will respect them in public, and in private communications, and they know that I will work my hardest to provide a learning environment that is informative, safe, and interesting. I am not an insult to my profession, or my students. I am a credit to both, and I have teaching awards on my wall awarded by 2 different universities, but more importantly, I have teaching awards on my wall that were nominated and voted on by students to prove it.
Having addressed your assertions, I’ll address you directly: What’s arrogant is what you attempted to do with your “library” comment: to attempt to degrade the worth of educators by minimizing the value of classes and minimizing the worth of a profession that you obviously have never attempted. You’ve essentially told me that you and your peers were so smart that classes were virtually unnecessary, and that you could pick up any knowledge you wanted by just reading a book. And you call me arrogant? Pot, kettle, black, etc. Simple projection.
You lost me at “schools are businesses” – any teacher will tell you that this statement completely devalues the education that the student chooses to pay for. Yes, it is a privilege that we live in a place that allows virtually any student with the means to pay (and many that don’t) to attend higher education in some form, but it is still an active choice on behalf of the student to attend school and adhere to its rules, as well as act with basic principles of professionalism.
At the level that this MBA student is apparently at, it is clear that he is has been in the collegiate “game” for awhile. At the graduate/postgraduate levels, there is a certain degree of professionalism that is expected to be exhibited by not only the professor but by the student, as well.
Don’t get me wrong – schools and money go hand in hand in some respects – I know this from my continuing collegiate experience. However, TEACHING and LEARNING (isn’t that why we choose to pursue higher education?) is summed up as this at every level: facilitating the acquisition of new or deepening knowledge from a more knowledgeable other. I don’t see money anywhere in that, really.
You state “If you’re an employee, you don’t sass the boss, or anyone above you.”
In this case, the employee is the professor, NOT the student.
My grandmother (a psychology professor at a second-rate university) used to love to tell me that “college freshmen think they know everything.” After getting my own PhD I learned that the proper retort was “and professors at second-rate institutions are absolutely sure of it.”
Anon – Although I overwhelmingly agree with the points you make in your two posts, I believe you may be overestimating the amount students wish to tap into your expertise.
For a student to care about tapping into your expertise, the following three conditions must be met. 1) You have expertise in the subject area, 2) The student cares about learning, 3) you are the most efficient source of transmitting this expertise (i.e., the course material is not easily obtainable through other methods). I discuss each of these below.
Assumption 1- Professors have expertise in the subject area: In an MBA program, it is often the case that the professors do not have real world expertise in the areas they teach. For example, it is very common for finance professors to have a purely academic background with no significant banking experience. Yet these same professors will teach courses on M&A, investments, etc. Oftentimes students/peers who were involved in HF, PE, etc will know significantly more about how finance is conducted “real world”. The same goes for strategy professors who often times went straight from an undergraduate program to a doctoral program specializing in decision science or economics. Strategy in theory is nothing like strategy utilized in a board room or in the real world. B-school professors are incredibly smart – yet, they often don’t possess the expertise in the subject area. Students aren’t going to want to tap into your expertise if it’s not relevant to the real world.
Assumption 2 – Students care about learning: While many students are interested in learning, a very large number would say that their primary purpose for going to school is for a reason other than seeking enlightenment. These reasons might include post-graduation career opportunities, networking opportunities, etc. If students were offered an option to get straight As without attending class/learning, many would choose to do so. This is particularly true of business school where students view their time in an MBA program as a 2 year vacation between two stressful jobs. Your expertise in an area may not mean very much to these students.
Assumption 3 – You are the most efficient source of transmitting this expertise: There are many situations and concepts that require an expert like yourself to guide a novice. However, there are MANY cases where the teacher is clearly not the most efficient way to learn for students. The fact that undergraduate lower division math/science courses at many state universities are taught by lecturers/graduate students who have difficulty communicating in English, exemplifies this. For these courses, online videos such as the Kahn Academy, or just reading the textbook, might be able to synthesize key points in a much more efficient manner. There definitely seems to be a trend in education away from “expert teachers” including K-12 charter schools moving away from experienced teachers to computer adaptive learning modules, and universities experimenting with online courses with minimal student/teacher interaction. When the professor is no longer the most efficient way for a student to learn about the material at hand, the student will not care to tap into the professor’s expertise.
My feeling is that it is often the case that at least one of those assumptions is violated, either by the student, or by the teacher, and so students often aren’t concerned at all about “tapping into” the professor’s expertise. Again, I generally agreed with all your other points. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
You pay for a degree, you come and go at will. If you want to work hard and do all that and get straights A’s that’s great; if you want to do the bare minimum and still get pretty much the same piece of paper it doesn’t really matter. One student slipping into the back of a lecture is not as distracting as the self righteous professor that needs to call them out on it.
Yeah, this is completely wrong. You pay for the opportunity to learn, and if you learn enough to become proficient, you _earn_ a degree. If you do the bare minimum, you often do not pass a class, and not enough credits = no degree. Or in some cases, you take classes, and eventually take a comprehensive exam. If you didn’t learn what you were supposed to, and fail the exam, no degree. Even if you paid $50,000 for those classes–if you fail that exam, no degree.
It’s not quid pro quo . . . it’s not “pay money, get degree.” If you think that, you are missing the mark, WIDELY.
[…] Feel like I probably linked this a couple years ago, but I still love it […]
I can’t believe anyone would defend this student. Yes, you are free to come to class an hour late, but be prepared to pay the meager consequences, and come back next class! “I didn’t know yet” is not a valid excuse. WTF?!?! Bunch of coddled pansies who think otherwise.
Student: WRONG
Professor: CORRECT
end of story…..
DON’T BE TARDY FOR THE PARTAAYY!!!
(no excuses allowed!!)
Comparatively speaking, I went to college when the earth started to cool. We went to class. On the first day, we were given a syllabus. We did as we were instructed and to the best of our ability, and we hoped for the best. In today’s culture of higher education, students in the U.S., at least, are viewed (erroneously so) as ‘consumers’. They now ‘shop’ for courses. In truth, most are doing so because they want to get by with the least number of pages to read and papers to write. I was fortunate enough to read for a graduate degree at Oxford University. As some of you may know, Oxford’s Tutorial system is hundreds of years old. Unlike the system in the U.S., the Tutorial system places the greatest burden on the student to produce his or her own scholarship under the direction of a truly distinguished scholar in the student’s chosen course of study. Students there do not shop for tutors or syllabi – because they can’t ultimately escape being held almost solely responsible for their own learning. They must produce weekly papers – and defend those ideas in individual tutorials with their professors who could have written their fledgling thoughts ages ago – but who continue to maintain the student’s dignity in the correct, educationally appropriate manner – through Socratic discussion and inquiry. This in contrast to U.S. professors who, unfortunately, maintain the student’s dignity by according respect to the student only because they pay tuition. It is unimaginable, almost, to consider what an Oxford professor would do to a student who arrives to a seminar, lecture, or Tutorial almost an hour late. It isn’t tolerated….but there again, it simply isn’t done. American students suffer from being by-products of consumerism. Many are under the illusion that they are truly being educated, when, in fact, they are not. The result – students who graduate with inflated grades to accompany their inflated and false sense of self. I applaud this professor for so many reasons and on so many levels.
Regardless of whether the student should be viewed as a consumer, a customer, or simply a person who is fortunate enough to be in that class, that student does have the right to be treated with some dignity. While I think that the behavior is deserving of criticism, and the student’s email is idiotic, the professor’s response is much more deserving of criticism. There’s very little need for such a condescending tone, especially while trying to give a student a lesson about respect (rather ironic in my estimation). Furthermore; forwarding the response, anonymous or not, is totally unprofessional. It sends the message that other students should not come to this man looking to be treated with respect, and is damaging to the classroom experience for the other students in that regard.
And here’s my Southern upbringing and philosophy coming through: “You have to break them down to build them up.” If the student lacks the obvious concern and respect for the professor’s and his/her classmates’ dignity – then they have no right to expect the same. The professor’s response was on point…and that student may well have learned a very valuable lesson (such as not coming late to a strategy session for a product entering the market penetration phase)…. Who knows?
The student had a right to be treated with dignity right up to the point of that ridiculous email. At that point, dignity was pretty much out the window. I disagreed with Galloway’s actions, but I have every sympathy for what he expressed in the email, and zero sympathy for the student. And the student has learned a lesson: if you pass a tiger and he only snarls, for God’s sake, don’t go back and poke him because he snarled. You’ll get the claws.
I didn’t see any indication that Galloway treated anyone else with a lack of respect. Many times, stupidity has consequences, and I’d bet that the class learned that very valuable lesson. Don’t want to be embarrassed? Don’t be stupid. I can’t think of a single one of my students who would have sent that email, and they’re mainly freshmen and sophomores, much less grad students.
Here Here ! Totally correct.
I don’t think this student was disrespectful. I think her attempt to use the auditing period, if that is what NYU has (it appears so), was a deliberate effort to use effective time management. I am normally very conservative and in favor of rules and decorum, but in this case I feel like the professor is just a petty tyrant, ruling over the one little dominion he can control and abusing his students, with all sorts of rationalizations, to satisfy his (not really so secure) self-importance. As they say, “those who can do; those who can’t, teach.” Get out in the real world, “professor” Galloway, and deal with some real competition and time pressures.
They’re both assholes. So is everyone here. So am I.
The student paid for an education.
That’s just what the professor gave her.
Where’s the problem?
Reblogged this on Jason Hsiao and commented:
Every MBA needs to read this. The world doesn’t care about what you think you’re “entitled” to. Respect. Humility. That’s what true leadership is about.
This is completely retarded. The student has the right to “shop” for classes if he’s paying for it. It’s obvious the student wanted to make sure he takes the class that will best suit his needs. Shopping doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about his classes/professors, in fact this shows his commitment to the course that he finds suitable. Maybe everyone else in the class was satisfied with just reading a short description of the class and maybe hearing a couple verbal descriptions from prior students. But in the same way that you can’t experience a book by reading the blurb or hearing somebody describe it, the student wanted to experience each class first hand. Come to think of it, can you ever really appreciate/understand anything if you only hear about it indirectly? It was the first day of class. Cut him some slack.
For everyone comparing the class to a job, it astounds me how stupid this comparison is. Yes, there are plenty of parallels between the two but the topic in question (coming in late) is completely different in an education environment and in a workplace. I really shouldn’t have to explain this but after reading some of the comments, I am compelled to spell out the difference. No one shops for jobs because most people find a job and stick with it. In school, you can choose from a myriad of courses because that’s how school works. Did you know you can add and drop classes too? You can pretty much choose any course you want because the whole university system was designed to be accessible to the students who, you know, pay a small fortune just to attend. Oh by the way, if you didn’t know, jobs pay you to work there, not the other way around. Therefore the workplace-job comparison is completely unfounded.
Onto the actual people themselves, it’s not like the student was extremely rude to the professor. He even sent an email explaining his actions (the student’s) when he could’ve just dropped the issue. In addition, the professor’s response in its entirety is just straight douchebaggery. If Galloway really didn’t harbor any affinity or animosity like he claimed, the email would’ve been a lot shorter. Instead we get several pages of discourse that reeks of pretentiousness. Reading the professor’s response I immediately got the impression that he was telling the student off and enjoying every word of it. Why? Because the student was from a different generation? Because the professor was having a bad day? Because the professor was truly offended? We’ll never know. In any case, a professor that can’t handle a student walking in late and causing a minor disturbance is too sensitive to be teaching, especially, and I’ll reiterate, on the first goddamn day of class. What happens if a student needs to use the bathroom? If Galloway really didn’t want to be interrupted, he should’ve just ignored the student, that’s easy enough to do right? But no, the professor had to stop the class to refuse the student. Do you know why the student thought it was ok to come in late? Because all the other professors don’t have a problem with it on the first day of school. Because other professors don’t hold themselves to such a high degree that their attendance policy is tantamount to that of a dictator.
Maybe it’s because this is Stern we’re talking about and I attend Tisch so I don’t really understand the dynamics of that particular school. Maybe that’s true. But over here at Tisch we treat people like people, lateness like lateness, and assholes like assholes. If everybody would stop being little fucking divas and stop generalizing (I’m looking at you, the people that wrote off my entire generation as lazy and self-centered) maybe we can actually get some work done.
Agree, although people do shop for jobs. At least I do and most people I know. It’s not like companies are doing you a favor by hiring you. I get several offers a week, and after interviews, I choose the best offer. If most people don’t, it’s either because their job market is saturated or because they just take the first job they get for some weird reason.
After INTERVIEWS you choose the best offer. You don’t go into the office, sit down at a desk, start disrupting their work day. You meet with one person whose job it is to discuss the position with you. You aren’t interrupting/disrupting the entire company “shopping” for that job…
In my opinion, this professor was dead-on, and not at all unreasonable. This student is a Master’s candidate. If they haven’t figured out the basic rules of etiquette yet, they have many more troubles than one professor dismissing them from class. Time to pull on the big-kid pants.
The professor is not too bright either. By teaching someone something as rudely as he did, he makes me think he is jaded, unappreciated, and derives his sense of value from the formal, and not substantive aspects of authority. Students should not do what this student did, but Any student is better off, not taking this guy’s class.
My God. Your lack of understanding is truly stunning.
The professor is a self-important ass. There was a way to address this student without being a dick. She’s a freshman, we were all there and didn’t know shit. I’m sure he forgot to mention that her money will ow go elsewhere, and he is now on the don’t take this douchbag’a class list. That’ll fuck you good.
You didn’t even read this, did you. “freshman”? Try reading the article, and know that the student in question is in a GRADUATE PROGRAM. My Lord, reading comprehension, people!
Anonymous: don’t waste your time replying to people like ARoss – they’re just playing devil’s advocate. As you pointed out, the student is an MBA candidate, NOT a freshman who didn’t know $hit.
When I read the headline, I thought “Oh, nice, can’t wait to see some whiny brat getting skewered.” However, what I discovered is a kindergarten approach in the whole affair, on both sides, professor and student. I say this with experience with universities in the US and in Europe where professors tend not to mince words as much as they do in the US. Here, the trappings of formality not only apply to professor-student relationships (think the German obsession with titles, “Herr Herr Professor”), but to society in general (I’ve seen some of these things soften over time, arguably in England, but England’s about as European as New Zealand).
First, no one ever gives you a run down of “class policy” when “class policy” means how late you can be, what not to wear, what sorts of words should be avoided, and so on. It is merely a known that if you’re more than 15 minutes late, you generally shouldn’t bother showing up in the first place. If you are up to 15 minutes late, you apologize and sit down, and if that time exceeds 15 minutes, well, it depends on the professor on how he’ll react. In any case, the point is that even though the student-professor relationship in Europe tends to be of a more formal nature, the net effect is that the student-professor relationship tends to be, in my personal experience, less condescending and authoritarian. By having to state tardiness rules and such nonsense, the effect is that American students are treated like babies, and by implication, this places the professor on an obnoxious pedestal, as if he were some kind of god who, out of his divine mercy, has finally, though reluctantly, agreed to bestow us with the scraps of his infinite wisdom. Personally, I would feel insulted having to be read a policy like that, and I frankly always have been. Imagine is a professor told you “Rule #3: don’t chew gum in class. Rule #4. don’t play noisy games on your cell phone.” Wouldn’t you be insulted to even hear that? If not, then congratulations. You’re officially an infantile grunt.
Second, I find the way classes are often run to be babyish as well. That is, if you’re an adult, you know you’re competence in a subject. Though university policy usually requires that you attend lectures (as opposed to more interactive classes where attendance is generally not negotiable), professors will often allow you to study independently and then pass the exam. I never understood the overemphasis on attendance, the “3 strikes you’re out” nonsense. It’s not that you shouldn’t attend in most cases, it’s that it shouldn’t be so mechanistically and formally approached across the board. Very often, European professors will put you through a written or often an oral exam which fails students quite regularly, though usually you’re give the opportunity to repeat (after which, if you fail, you’re out of the university; you can’t retake the class). The point, again, is that this empty adherence to a childish formality at US universities really sets up a childish dynamic in the classroom and makes the university a very unpleasant and needlessly rigid place to be (and obnoxiously informal at a different level at the same time, as American culture tends to be). It’s counterproductive and the net effect isn’t free and rigorous thinking, but a kind of lingering fear about disagreeing with the dogmas of the subject. Make no mistake, I believe a student should be familiar with the material, but when erudition trumps free thought, nothing can stifle the intellect more than blind adherence. European universities may suffer from overformalization in other areas, particularly in bureaucratic matters, but the one thing they don’t suffer from, in my experience at least, is childish classroom formalism.
Third, to the person who said that the student isn’t a customer, you’re right. He’s worse than a customer. The outrageous tuition that’s payed in the US isn’t merely because universities are private. If you actually trace the rise of tuition, you’ll note that it doesn’t scale with the inflation of the dollar or any reasonable cause. The simple fact of the matter is that because the federal loan system is so liberal, universities have allowed themselves to charge more and more over time because they know someone will cover the bill in the end. Education isn’t as expensive as it’s been made to be. Universities have become de facto businesses more than what they originally represented, viz., an organization in which students can truly develop intellectually. I emphasize truly because universities don’t do that. Today, they’re nothing but trade schools and a $200,000 BYOB party.
Fourth, as far as having the right to demand anything from a professor having payed for his course, I think we’re being too emotional here. Obviously, paying the professor’s salary doesn’t entitle you to shitting on his head. What it does entitle you to exactly is a topic beyond the scope of this post. However, the student could have done the reasonable thing and made good use of the 2 weeks before registration is closed and attended two different classes of the three he found most interesting (and you’re damn right he has the right to check both out when he’s paying the ridiculous fee he’s paying). The risk analysis statement is stupid, and this business professor should have known that even in keeping with the mistake of framing the class as some daring investment; all business is risk, and without risk, you go nowhere. And besides, what’s the risk in taking a course that turns out to be less interesting? It’s not like you’re sinking $50 million dollars into a questionable technology. Very poor analogy, especially given that most lectures are poorly executed.
All in all, the student was foolish and strange in his email, but in the end, the professor was just as childish, presumptuous and arrogant. If he wanted to chastise the student, he could have done so without the awkward vitriol. And truth be told, this post wasn’t even worth posting. Why is some particular private and meaningless exchange the talk of the town? Who hasn’t had a professor who likes to sprinkle his lectures with pirate talk? Or is this some puerile, seething American resentment looking for an occasion, any pretext, to vent?
Grow up.
I’m a postdoctoral researcher in neuroscience, and I’ve taught several classes in the faculty of science under both neuroscience and computer science. More than that, I’m also actively engaged in the science pedagogy, and active learning techniques to enable students to become better learners, or more actively engage to get the most out of their coursework and classroom experience. Even more than that, during my own undergraduate degree I had two classes that were unfortunately scheduled and overlapped by 30 minutes, so I have experienced a similarly challenging situation than this student.
For a variety of pedagogical reasons, it’s extremely common (and students are often encouraged) to search for courses that offer content they are interested in and can integrate into their program of study, a lecture and evaluation style that matches their own learning strengths (for example, board notes versus slides, lecture versus seminar, exams versus projects), and a balanced workload that they can manage with their other classes. This has been the case at each of the Universities I have been employed at or attended, and the normal period for this is a few weeks.
It’s an uncommon situation that the courses a student wishes to choose between may end up scheduled by the registrar at the same time. If they’re evening classes (as these appear to be), the classes can often be 3 hours long, which means there’s likely only 12 to 14 per semester (versus approximately 40 1 hour long classes). Missing one or more of these means that a student can lose a much larger chunk of course content by choosing to attend one the first week, and another the second week.
As a student actively engaged in shaping my curriculum and finding an interesting, engaging course that would complement my other coursework, I’d have easily chosen to sample each of them on the first night they were offered (exactly as this student did) as a way of balancing this scheduling issue and finding a course to add to my education. Because that’s, in the end, what the goal is — and the effect of any student walking into my lectures late is in general 10 seconds of pause — in my experience this is an overreaction to a non-issue on the part of the professor, and a very well written explanation on the part of the student to help remedy things and remind the professor of the importance of being able to shape ones education in the face of scheduling issues.
Sorry, Peter. You’re simply wrong.
A compelling rebuttal from Vance if I’ve ever seen one. Perhaps you could explain why?
Maybe an explanation of why you think they’re wrong would be more helpful.
Comparatively speaking, I went to college when the earth started to cool. We went to class. On the first day, we were given a syllabus. We did as we were instructed and to the best of our ability, and we hoped for the best. In today’s culture of higher education, students in the U.S., at least, are viewed (erroneously so) as ‘consumers’. They now ‘shop’ for courses. In truth, most are doing so because they want to get by with the least number of pages to read and papers to write. I was fortunate enough to read for a graduate degree at Oxford University. As some of you may know, Oxford’s Tutorial system is hundreds of years old. Unlike the system in the U.S., the Tutorial system places the greatest burden on the student to produce his or her own scholarship under the direction of a truly distinguished scholar in the student’s chosen course of study. Students there do not shop for tutors or syllabi – because they can’t ultimately escape being held almost solely responsible for their own learning. They must produce weekly papers – and defend those ideas in individual tutorials with their professors who could have written their fledgling thoughts ages ago – but who continue to maintain the student’s dignity in the correct, educationally appropriate manner – through Socratic discussion and inquiry. This in contrast to U.S. professors who, unfortunately, maintain the student’s dignity by according respect to the student only because they pay tuition. It is unimaginable, almost, to consider what an Oxford professor would do to a student who arrives to a seminar, lecture, or Tutorial almost an hour late. It isn’t tolerated….but there again, it simply isn’t done. American students suffer from being by-products of consumerism. Many are under the illusion that they are truly being educated, when, in fact, they are not. The result – students who graduate with inflated grades to accompany their inflated and false sense of self. I applaud this professor for so many reasons and on so many levels.
I’m with you, Vance Jenkins, on every one of your replies.
Wow. I’m certainly glad the student in question wound up taking another class, as he surely learned more about “Brand Strategy” from this email exchange than Professor Galloway could have taught in a semester. A professor who would publicly berate his student (both in-class and via email to his entire class, including forwarding on a private message (while the student’s name was removed, surely everyone who saw him try to come in late knows his identity) to a large audience of the student’s peers) for daring to evaluate his options an choose the course that might best suit his learning objectives is one who clearly knows how to do only one thing in branding: brand himself as an obnoxious, self-important, and petty jerk. If our Professor wasn’t trying to demonstrate to the class how a single outburst can “go viral” and tarnish brands, he’s in the wrong line of work.
In fairness, Professor Galloway did manage to realize this (see his take at http://bigthink.com/users/scottgalloway), but only after 11+ million people saw the emails, and he thinks so highly of himself that he thinks the whole experience reflects well on him instead of realizing that he’s acted like a jackass in front of 11+ million people. Get your shit together indeed…
Very true. I also think though, it’s not just about him being an ass, it’s about his failure to understand modern communication systems.
I attend a school where the curriculum is fantastic but the majority of the student body are rude, uneducated, charity cases. They talk through lectures amd text all through class. Unfortunately hardly any of the professors will stand up and tell them to knock it off. I applaud this man!
If there is nothing in the school’s policy which states that a student cannot sample courses at specific times of the day, then the professor is dead wrong. The old phart needs to understand he doesn’t run the school, and that interruptions can and will continue to happen as long as the school allows class sampling. That is why he is just a grumpy old professor.
As far as I know, professors set class etiquette, not the university. There are university-wide codes of responsible student conduct, but those don’t cover class policies.
professor sounds like a stuck up douche bag
Educators like this exist within their bubbles where they do believe they are Masters of the Universe and forget there is a real world outside their four walls.
Comparatively speaking, I went to college when the earth started to cool. We went to class. On the first day, we were given a syllabus. We did as we were instructed and to the best of our ability, and we hoped for the best. In today’s culture of higher education, students in the U.S., at least, are viewed (erroneously so) as ‘consumers’. They now ‘shop’ for courses. In truth, most are doing so because they want to get by with the least number of pages to read and papers to write. I was fortunate enough to read for a graduate degree at Oxford University. As some of you may know, Oxford’s Tutorial system is hundreds of years old. Unlike the system in the U.S., the Tutorial system places the greatest burden on the student to produce his or her own scholarship under the direction of a truly distinguished scholar in the student’s chosen course of study. Students there do not shop for tutors or syllabi – because they can’t ultimately escape being held almost solely responsible for their own learning. They must produce weekly papers – and defend those ideas in individual tutorials with their professors who could have written their fledgling thoughts ages ago – but who continue to maintain the student’s dignity in the correct, educationally appropriate manner – through Socratic discussion and inquiry. This in contrast to U.S. professors who, unfortunately, maintain the student’s dignity by according respect to the student only because they pay tuition. It is unimaginable, almost, to consider what an Oxford professor would do to a student who arrives to a seminar, lecture, or Tutorial almost an hour late. It isn’t tolerated….but there again, it simply isn’t done. American students suffer from being by-products of consumerism. Many are under the illusion that they are truly being educated, when, in fact, they are not. The result – students who graduate with inflated grades to accompany their inflated and false sense of self. I applaud this professor for so many reasons and on so many levels.
Students ARE the Consumers when they have to pay for the “product,” that being the knowledge delivered by the Employees (Professors). Why is it “erroneous” to label this pecking order in this way? Beyond Professor ego, I mean.
The academic relationship between professor and student is not the same. To reduce it to mere consumerism is to devalue something that has been sacrosanct since the Age of Socrates. Most universities outside the U.S. get this. In today’s model of “student as consumer” – “professor as employee” – students ultimately lose, because, on the whole, they expect (and mostly receive) grades they didn’t earn. Professors would much prefer to research, write, and publish than deal with an impertinent child and squabble over grades. In the end, they give the baby the pacifier (the A). The baby is pacified (no more whining and jumping up and down and threats to go to the Dean). But it doesn’t address the baby’s true needs (true mastery of the content). Like it or not – and on the whole – this is where we are as a culture.
i would not have left the class unless he called security to remove me. point, blank, period…
Then you would have had security called, and been arrested for criminal trespass. That just reeks of genius.
I have had students like you physically removed from my class (State Uni in NY). And then dropped them after speaking with the Dean. It’s easy to say things like that, but the bottom line is exactly what others have said above–the classroom is the professor’s domain. Full stop. If you choose to flaunt the rules, you’re out. And life goes on.
If you are a true Professor, you are out of line. The Students are the Consumers who pay YOUR salary in purchasing the “product” which is “knowledge” which YOU, the EMPLOYEE, is hired to deliver.
Check your ego at the door and remember your place. Full stop.
That’s one big bucket of horse piss, Bryan. Dude up above said it, in case your dumb ass missed it. Read the prof and learn:
“Schools are not businesses. The most basic point of a business is to make money. The most basic point of a university is to educate, not to make money, and that inherently makes it NOT A BUSINESS. It takes infrastructure and people to carry out the mission of a university, and that’s what costs money. There are “for-profit universities.” For instance, the “University of Phoenix.” These “universities” are invariably poor at what they do because their primary motivation is profit, not education. Or do you think that the “University of Phoenix” is comparable with your alma mater?
Comparing a university to a business just because it takes a lot of money to run is as invalid as comparing the military to a business because it takes a lot of money to run. You benefit from the military. You, however, are not the customer of the military, and you don’t get to walk onto a base and tell a Marine what to do simply because your tax dollars contribute to the military. You don’t pay a lieutenant’s salary, and s/he doesn’t answer to you. In the same sense, you are not the customer of a university, and you don’t get to walk onto a campus and dictate what goes on there, either. ”
‘Nuff said, Bryan. Don’t let that door hit you in the ass on the way out. Full stop.
I very much DO pay the Lieutenant’s salary via my taxes.
A University IS a business and students ARE the customers. The Product is the education. Suggesting that a University isn’t a business is like suggesting that McDonald’s isn’t a business because it is there to feed you hamburgers and money is just, ya know, one of those extraneous things we don’t need to consider.
The student in this scenario categorically was NOT telling anyone what to do nor was he/she attempting to change any rules. Clearly signing up for three simultaneous classes was not against the rules because the University allowed it to happen. The Professor has a cushy job and feels he is Lord God in his own Bubble Universe. The student is paying a tremendous amount of money to DISCOVER what it is he/she will be doing for the rest of his/her life. It’s the job of the University…the FOR-PROFIT BUSINESS… to provide the education (the product) to help students determine that via curriculum, not via an insulting ego-driven snarky public email.
Full stop.
I am not a teacher of any sort… Yes, Universities are businesses, but to say a professorship is “cushy” or a well paid position… you clearly have no concept of the pay scale for most college professors. I have 2 in my friends and family group. they live strictly middle class and not up in some mansion.
You want us to think of college as a business, fine. the professor was the manager of that particular franchise and that franchise has its rule. he upheld that rule and sent the employee home for not following set policies… one of common sense. I have taken multiple classes before to see which I wanted. I sat through an entire class and then on the next scheduled day for the other went to the other class and reached my decision what to do. It is a common enough practice. I did not get up halfway through and jump into another. What are you going to get out of a 20 minute sampling any way. Still, the matter was more about courtesy… to the professor, to the other students, and yes… to the student that thought jumping from one class to another would be ok, then decided to drag out the experience by writing the email.
Whoever thinks this professor is rude or out of line is a simpering, self-entitled, preternaturally fragile wimp. Not that this kind of student doesn’t overpopulate our college campuses already. Good luck in the business word, Sampler Chick.
I’ve got lots of feelings here… hear me out through the whole thing, if you care to.
FIRST – As a college student, I was righteously angered with this behavior of this student. This just reeks of what I like to call Spoiled College Student Entitlement – to think you can just get up and walk out of class (on the first day, no doubt) without any stated reason or note the professor beforehand. First, there are other ways to preview a class (talk to friends, email the professors, ask them to email you the syllabus if they are allowed). Second, if you are going to go this goofy route, at least notify the instructors beforehand. And my gosh, be thankful you are allowed a higher education in the first place.
NEXT – This professor is most obviously a hardass and a respected badass. He is the kind of professor I’d personally like to have because he accepts no bullshit. I think he has a lot of “sage advice” BUT he is also considered a “popular professor.” This isn’t a bad thing necessarily, and he certainly proves a point with his email. However, should he wield his badassery in a way that severely and publicly could potentially humiliate another student? Some people, yeah, they need to learn the hard way, and I don’t feel that what this student did was right, but does the professor have the right to broadcast it? It gives me pause, because making an example of students in a negative light has the potential to be very damaging, and I am sure that there are students that personally know/have seen the student in question, so it’s not very anonymous that he removed the name. Now it is all over the Internet. If I went viral on the Internet/my campus, beaming reamed outright for my carelessness and poor decision-making, I would probably feel quite shamed. There might have been a better way to go about this. Eh, my feelings are mixed on this. It does seem a bit harsh.
LAST – A little more on the badass professor: as much as I initially thought this guy was super awesome for putting an apparently entitled student in his/her place, I think this doesn’t set a very good example of how professors should act on a whole, especially professors or any kind of teachers that are new to the game. He can get away with this because he is a popular, well-loved, and respected teacher that. If most other professors did this, I’d wager they’d find themselves with some nasty business brewing. Especially in this sue-happy age… gotta be careful.
Or the student could check http://www.ratemyprofessor.com for more info… lol
That’s how I get a lot of my students. 🙂
Let’s not get it twisted, the professor is no hero. He wanted to humiliate the student and nothing more. If nothing at all, sending a copy of the email to the entire class is proof enough.
WORD!
It seems that the whole of the professors argument is predicated upon the students actions, which he claims violate a “baseline level of decorum”. If the precedent set at this university is that class “sampling” is rude, offensive, and unacceptable, then the professor is absolutely correct; the student does “need to get their **** together.” If however the status quo says that class sampling perfectly acceptable, then this professor is an presumptuous ass.
WOW I say they’re both bourgeoisie idiots suffering from 2 respective cases of first world problems … I hope one day I have a luxurious enough job where I can take the leisurely time out of my day to come up with a thorough, well-thought-out response to some Nobody’s flippant non-email. If I was that professor, I’d delete it with the rest of my junk mail and get back to doing something more productive … like bullshitting on facebook or youtube for instance, or idk … doing the job that affords such a lifestyle. Selecting one student for special attention, even “tough love,” is the stuff of lifetime movies and hallmark cards … empty self-congratulatory ego posturing that makes my stomach turn. Call me a cynic, but I don’t think you can fix student xxxx’s brand of privileged “I’m so special” stupid. It’s best to not even validate it … even if you are a charismatic and well-payed business professor.
I would walk in to the next class 2 hrs late and piss on the desk and tell him I was still working on getting my sh!t together.
Good one!
This professor is real smart.
Wonder if he knows about locking doors.
I am a university professor and I would just like to say everyone should eat more acid and molly and smoke weed every day. Trust me, I am a doctor … unlike many of the obvious imitations I see lurking this thread. Stay in school kids!
It seems there is no way that both of them might be correct. The professor can force what ever rules he wants in the class. on the other hand comparing a class with the business meeting is like assuming that the professor is CEO of Goldman Sachs. He is not, so he could just say that it is his rule. Making further assumptions is a mistake. If the professor is so genius and successful why he didn’t prevent 2008 recession.
No urinating on desks?! But I pay 40k a year!
This is utter stupidity on both parts. Regardless of what the student should be able to do according to their absurd tuition payments, the teacher runs the classroom and if they tell you to get out, you get out. Also, very reasonably WORDED letter to the professor, but entirely unreasonable to even write such a letter. With that said, the Prof is clearly a joker. If you respond to students that way youre a child. A graduate student was late to a class and you tell them to get their shit together? Youre a joke. Typical business schools jamokes on both sides. Do yourself a favor and get a real degree. Marketing professor … HA!
This is sad since I know this is a common practice for kids who don’t know the teacher. There are many teacher who take advantage of kids, because they are kids. Maybe some sensitivity training would be good for this teacher. What I learned is he is a jerk, probably need to step onto the streets and learn some practical skills like common sense. I am an older fellow and have seen some real bad teacher that have not been called out due to they have the “just a kid” defense. Have a bit of a heart for kids who would like to learn they pay your wages you very controlling nut, really on the first day. Your college should be happy people go, this attitude will slowly ruin a school. Pray I do not become a dean, I will chew and spit out mean teacher. Replacements are a dime a dozen.
“Kids” don’t get MBA’s. If this were a “kid,” maybe. But it is a graduate student. Graduate students tend to be seen more as professionals than as kids. If an employee does not show up for work until 2/3 of the way through the shift, the boss does not say, “Oh, he/she was only 24 or 23 years old, I understand. I should let it slide and forget the rules for now.”
Making the students happy is not the point of the class. The student didn’t show up, the applicable rule applied. Yes, this may be controlling, but that is because the professor is in charge. The job of the professor is to form and uphold his/her classroom rules, and seeming to lenient on the first day can be a serious problem for the rest of the semester, so the rules must, in fact, be observed, even on the first day. This is not always the case, but it depends on the professors previous experiences. I used to be a lot more lenient as a professor, until too many students too advantage of that, and I just had to start being a little more strict.
Although I can see how during the semester human decency, politeness, and respect for the professor should prevent students from walking in this late, on the first day it’s a completely different story. Many schools, like mine, have ever-shrinking drop/add periods. At my university the period is now TWO DAYS. It starts Monday and is over Tuesday. If you happen to be interested in a class that meets once a week on Wednesday, you’re SOL. If you happen to want a class that meets twice/three times a week, then you can only make it two one class before you decide. Many times, classes are scheduled in the same time slots, so if you only have ONE chance to attend a class before you can drop it, and there is no humanly possible way to attend both at the same time? You have to do what this student did. I don’t know the drop/add policy at the Stern business school, of course, but I am saddened by the overwhelming support for the professor, when there are other forces at play here that may be forcing the student to what he/she did.
The student should have had a suspicion that showing up to class late could be a potential problem. They are, after all, a grad student. So it would have been a good idea to email the professor ahead of time to discuss the plan to come late. The student could then have come to this class first.
What’s worse, though, is that the student couldn’t simply accept the unfortunate consequences. The student can’t take all three classes even if he/she wanted to, but that doesn’t mean something should be done to allow the student to do so. If the student can’t go to all three classes before the add/drop date, then the student should accept that. Or the student can show up to a class late. But according to the rules, there were also consequences to that. Instead of accepting these, the student complained about them, presumptuously writing the professor to criticize the professor’s policies. It is that level of presumption which gains support for the professor rather than the student.
While I can understand the Professor’s position (and he is mostly correct), what the Professor forgets is that the Students are the Consumers and the “Knowledge” is the “Product.” Professors are essentially the employees hired to deliver the product to the Consumers who ARE paying the salaries of the Professors.
Yes, respect is necessary. Yes, it is rude to just get up and walk out early and conversely arrive very late. The student’s method of “sampling” isn’t a very effective way to choose which class to take nor was it polite. BUT, it is the Student’s/Consumer’s money in the end so the Professor’s condescending attitude was a bit out of line as he misses his part in the equation. Student = Consumer/Employer. Professor = Product/Employee.
WRONG. You obv. didn’t read a reply above by anonymous prof.
this whole deal about students being customers is, frankly, bullshit. You do not pay my salary. The university pays my salary. Some of you need to learn that not everything in life can be reduced to business terms. This is not a business. This is a school. I am not trying to sell you a product. You are not a customer. You are a student. I am trying to educate you. You are paying for an opportunity. You are paying for the opportunity to say, “I have x degree.” This does not guarantee that doors will open. It does guarantee that some doors will not automatically close. If you don’t like those terms, go flip burgers for a while and see if those terms don’t become dramatically more attractive. If this sounds arrogant, too bad. It’s not personal. It’s academic.
and
Schools are not businesses. The most basic point of a business is to make money. The most basic point of a university is to educate, not to make money, and that inherently makes it NOT A BUSINESS. It takes infrastructure and people to carry out the mission of a university, and that’s what costs money. There are “for-profit universities.” For instance, the “University of Phoenix.” These “universities” are invariably poor at what they do because their primary motivation is profit, not education. Or do you think that the “University of Phoenix” is comparable with your alma mater?
Additionally, tuition is not, in many cases, the main driver of a university’s finances. Federal funding, federal grant funding, state funding, and donations play major roles in funding universities. Therefore, students do not pay my salary. They certainly do not DIRECTLY pay my salary. The customer-business analogy could not be much more inapt. Or inept, for that matter.
Dude has it right, you got it wrong so take your rushbo ann coulter bs and push it somehwere else.
Wrong. The University pays you a salary because STUDENTS pay the University. Students are the “job creators.” YOU wouldn’t have a job if not for the students or their money.
The day the University doesn’t take in money from students is the day you can claim that a University isn’t a business. It wouldn’t operate if there wasn’t a profit. Would YOU do your job for free?
Didn’t think so. You’re not just teaching out of the goodness of your heart. You’re doing it for cash. You’re a for-profit entity and the students are the way you get that cash.
Yes, there are other sources of income for a University, but “Federal Funding” comes from tax dollars, “Grant Funding” comes from tax dollars, “State Funding” comes from tax dollars, and “Donations” typically come from alumni who were once students who paid THEIR money to the business.
Learn your place.
If the whole university system were to crumble because students refused to pay professors, then they would both need to find employment in the workforce of their field. As it happens, professors tend to be more qualified for those positions than the uneducated would-be-students. The students would not get the available jobs. It seems to me that students have a lot more at risk in the professor/student relationship than professors do.
And anyway, students pay to have the chance to earn a degree and be taught by professors. They aren’t paying to boss around professors and decide what they think is worthy of their degree. If that were the case, degrees would mean nothing. That is already getting close to being the case.
So the professor has a policy against late entry into the class. It’s his right. Just like it’s the student’s right to add/drop a class. Get over it. Whining in an email accomplishes nothing.
I believe that both the student and professor were out of line in this situation and both could have acted differently and more respectfully. However, I’m not completely following a lot of comments that keep bringing up that the student disrupted the class full of students also paying all that money to be there. By the professors own admission, these are “grown men and women”, and what happens when students need to use the bathroom? These student are getting up to leave and re-enter the room, thereby “disrupting” the class twice. You can’t, or at least shouldn’t, tell grown adults when they can or cannot use the bathroom. This student could have come in a back entry and sat on an end seat in the back, while someone in the middle of the classroom getting up to use the restroom would be a much bigger “disturbance”. In either case, someone standing and quietly entering/exiting shouldn’t be much of a distraction if the other students are paying attention. I have sat through plenty of lectures and only when I am not fully engaged have I paid attention to people coming/going. There have been plenty of times that I’ve seen someone come back to class from the restroom and wondered how I never noticed them leave in the first place. I can see that the professor himself may find this disturbing, but to explain how utterly disruptive it is to all the other students is a huge exaggeration.
I think the student’s attempt to reach out on the matter was very professional and courteous. I think the professor, despite his later comment, obviously has animosity towards this particular person and used his response as an over analytical venting session at the student’s expense. He should be ashamed of himself for not practicing more self control and tolerance. He may not agree with the “decorum” practices of the student, but he should respect the fact that two parties will not always agree on subjective topics such as manners and public expectation. In my opinion, this professor should spend more time and energy in his instructional planning rather than these bitter and sinister rantings.
I’m an MBA student at NYU! I have no idea that being an hour late and disturbing others is bad! What? It’s bad? Now I’m bothered! Somebody pay attention to how I’m so bothered! No sinister rantings, please!
Yes, it’s always profession for a student to teach the professors. Because the professors are there to learn from the students. The students, after all, have far more experience in both their chosen field and the educational system in general. Professors have never before been students themselves, either, so it’s really good for them to see things from a different point of view. Sorry. My point is just that there was no reason for the student to email the student except to complain and make the professor feel guilty. The professor does, at least, have the job of educating students, so if that’s what he thinks his email is doing (which I think it is), then that’s reasonable.
Yes, he may not agree with the students tardiness. And yes, he understands that they do not agree on the issue. However, the problem is that it is his policy. If you’re an hour late you leave. He has reasons for making that rule. The student has reasons for being late. But the student does not have a reason for assuming that they should be the exception to the rule.
Perhaps this was the professor’s free time which he used to send the email. Are professors allowed free time, or should them spend their entire lives planning their classes?
The professor is awesome. The student was rude to walk in an hour late and then get pissed when the professor tells him to leave. Im in law school and if we are even 1 minute late we get thrown out. I pay over $40,000 a year where I attend school and I have the utmost respect for my professor and their rules. I don’t think that just because I pay so much money that I am entitled to walk in and out whenever I please. These people are my elders and they have had WAY more education and experience than I have.
I am a person of this “me” generation but I refuse to be a product of it. That student deserved every word that he got. I would have told him worse than just to get his shit together.
What was the point of either one of these emails?
The first one is some entitled MBA student who stood to gain absolutely nothing by emailing the professor. She wasn’t even apologizing! The real lesson to be learned is to use risk analysis to determine the best possible outcome of your actions. In this case, it would have been the professor’s reading it, not giving a single crap about it, and deleting it. What a waste of both of their time.
The second email is some self-important academic chastising a student at LENGTH over a matter so trivial it could have been dealt with in a curt, one-line email. I don’t disagree with the message, but I find the delivery so condescending and masturbatory that it discredits the professor’s authority to speak on decorum in the first place.
I hope I never meet either one of these people.
Okay.
I am not choosing a side in this matter. However, reading through the comments section, I am deeply disturbed by how walking into a class late is being compared to “urinating on desks” or “ordering food”.
People, this is a 10 second walk to a desk. Stop comparing it to actions that are obviously absurd in a classroom setting.
There is only one reasonable position in this thread. The student was wrong. Period. End of discussion. Any university student in most countries other than the U.S. would be obliterated for this kind of behavior. Those who uphold this student’s behavior are an intriguing commentary on where we are as a culture – and it’s not good.
There is something to be said for strictness, and there is something to be said for leniency. These non-US universities could perhaps benefit from examining more of the latter. A balance is best (as I feel this professor upholds).
excellent. maybe if i got an email like this freshman year i would have been a stronger student.
IT’S JUST A MATTER OF BEING RESPECTFUL !!!!!! If I were the student. I would not come late. EASY!!! As an educated one, we need to respect the rules. It’s true we have paid the tuition insanely, but it doesn’t mean we could interrupt the class by being a late comer. Of course the Prof would get mad because she was disturb other student who already been in lecturing. If you want to come late and have your own rule, STOP study in an education institution. GROW UP! You’re not a teenage high school student anymore.
Interrupting class? Seriously? Come on…if someone walking into a room and sitting in a seat is THAT much of a distraction. Maybe college isn’t for you. Get the hell over it teach. That kid’s paying your salary.
TRY to be a teacher or lecturer! You will know!
i am a lecturer, and though i may not be the same person, i can also see that the entrance of a body in a room, and often a large room, it no more insignificant than the spinning of a ceiling fan. i’m sorry its hard for you.
The university pays the prof’s salary, not the student.
Who really cares fuck calm down and they should all stop crying.
Also, I think this student was trying to do the responsible thing by emailing the professor to explain his actions in the first place. He could have easily walked away embarrassed and never brought it up again, but instead wrote the professor and explained why he was late. While the student’s tone and approach could certainly use improvement (a good case study on business communications perhaps?), he was clearly trying to be professional and let the professor know what happened after the fact, when it wouldn’t take up any more class time, instead of responding unprofessionally through actions like running away, begging for entry, refusing to leave, getting into a shouting match with the professor in the middle of class, or urinating on desks.
A reasonable and professional response would have been: “Thanks for the explanation, and I hope you find the class that best meets your needs this semester. For your future reference, many professors are disturbed by students entering and leaving late. In the future, you can always request a copy of the syllabus via email before the first class meeting or, at the very least, contact the professors involved in advance to let us know about any unusual scheduling conflicts.” An unreasonable and utterly unprofessional response: well we’ve already seen what that looks like above.
No, the only thing the student was ‘explaining’ was that s/he was ‘bothered’ and now the professor should feel bad and say: Oh my gosh were your feelings hurt? Because you did something wrong? Oooo come here and show me your boo-boo. Widdle boo-boo! Your feelings are important!
I’m not sure what the babytalk has to do with the situation, but ok…
As I read the student’s email (and again, I want to be clear that his tone in the email was not the most effective way of getting his message across), he was trying to let the professor know what was going on from a student’s point of view, just as the professor sought to let the student know how coming to the first class late looked from a professor’s point of view. A professor is somewhat removed from the process of course selection, enrollment, and the add/drop period and perhaps thought of this student as a disrespectful flake who couldn’t manage to show up on time. The student wanted to let him know what he was thinking so that the professor may understand why a student might show up late to the first class session.
In business, if there’s a misunderstanding between two parties, the professional thing to do is to explain yourself, apologize for any unintentional offense caused (which this student would have been well served to do more clearly in his email), and move on. The unprofessional response is to bully and berate someone and to forward a private communication on to an entire class of involved students.
That’s where you are off base MZ. There was not a misunderstanding between two parties. The prof understood perfectly. The student was late. Any “misunderstanding” was purely on the part of the student.
Wow. Money can’t buy manners. You either possess them or you don’t. Opinions are great
But relax folks. This student will one day be thankful for this email. Then again, if they delete it and shrug it off, the real work world will serve this student a reality best served when he/she shows up late to work or asks others for the same respect. Karma will be that it will be an hour late and 60 grand late.
JASON!!!! 4 THUMBS UP!!!!
Awesome response, Jason! Right on the money! Literally!
Frankly, I think the professor is a pompous ass. Really. The Professor kicking out the student mid-lecture was likely a lot more disruptive than the kid trying to slip in late …. And it’s perfectly reasonable to shop teachers the first few classes of the semester … And for prof to forward his email to other students — no doubt to humiliate the kid further. MBA programs are small, everyone knows each other … Really, major ass.
So the prof is wrong for having rules of behavior for his class AND upholding those rules?
The student was not wrong. I teach at a university, and students can shop between classes. Disruptions happen in college and you can’t stop them. What happens if a student has to use the bathroom? Are they supposed to send an email during the lecture to the Professor to ask for his permission? The “Professor” (who doesn’t even have a Ph.D. by the way), is out of line here. It’s a safe bet she won’t be taking his course!
I keep seeing comments going “what if the student has to use the bathroom”?!
By that age, they are toilet-trained. They can hold. They can go before class. Unless classes are more than two hours with no breaks, they should be old enough to do that.
What if they are sick? What if they have a medical problem? It’s ONE student entering a classroom. It takes about 5 seconds.
Excuse me? No adult deserves to be told by authorities when they can and cannot be allowed to go to the bathroom unless clear and significant safety requires otherwise (airline pilots can’t pop out to the lavatory during landing and surgeons can’t take a pee break at a critical moment in a procedure). Beyond that, everyone needs to act like an adult and behave responsibly by doing their best to visit the restroom before and after classes, minimize disruption entering and exiting the classroom if one needs to leave, and avoid missing as much of the class as possible.
You have no idea if a student has come from three classes back-to-back and has had no time to visit a restroom or simply whether his body is just a little different from yours. Unless the use of the bathroom becomes a significant problem, and it won’t if everyone behaves like civilized adults, it requires no special rules or discussion. It is the height of hubris to believe that your role as a professor is so important that it entitles you to control over your students’ bodily functions.
I would just like to add a comment to your “they should be toilet-trained” remark. I currently attend law school, and without fail every single class people (plural) constantly leave to go use the restrooms. Whether one hour into class, or twenty minutes.
The university at which you teach might allow students to shop for classes, but mine does not. I teach material that is part of the course in the first few weeks of class. The add/drop date is a couple weeks in, but that is not to literally shop for classes with no regard for classroom decorum. And if students find they need to sign up for my class late, I have to give them special attention outside of class time and office hours just to make sure they know the course policies (because they can never just read the syllabus on their own). It’s frustrating and should probably be discouraged. Students should be in class to learn the material, and that’s that.
What counts as a disruption varies by professor. Some allow late students, some don’t. Quite often strict policies are due to problems that arose from less strict ones. In a university, the instructor can set his or her policy for his or her classroom. When a student doesn’t follow the rules, then he or she must live with the consequences.
Shopping for classes might be best for the student, but a professor’s classroom policies do not have the student’s overall academic career in mind. Exams are set when they are, not on different dates to suit what works best for each student’s schedule. A professor can’t grade a student easier because that student is taking a lot of other hard classes (this last I’ve heard plenty of times). The professor needs to run his or her class based on what is best for a student in regards to that class. And coming to class on time so that students don’t miss anything? That’s something a professor might want to promote in his or her structuring the course policies.
am i the only one who thinks the professor, and all the commentators are either bitter adults or have had one too many hard ass bosses?
if the professors policy wasn’t to ask a student to leave, i bet this observer would’ve not only been quiet as a mouse, but generally sorry. many people talked about the opportunity of paying for an opportunity to learn, but if scheduling conflicts prevent the learning your paying to pursue, why is such a situation so preposterous?
too many professors are just angry that their “flow” got interrupted, or they think by treating students like adults that they’ll magically shape up like its the military or something. news flash, ALL LEVELS ARE EDUCATION ARE EDUCATION, NOT JOBS, NOT OBLIGATIONS, AND CERTAINLY NOT MEETINGS FOR THE FREAKIN GENIUSES OF THE WORLD. its a time to consider what you actually want it life, and take the time to learn something that will earn your place in the world, not “appease the professor” hour.
in our society a degree is security in life, so students will try and do well and pass classes, but it doesn’t give teachers the right flaunt superiority because they can have your future degree hostage if they decide your performance wasn’t good enough. students (often with problems) show up to classes because they want to, and its clear this student wants to have an education. Its not punctuality class, and after this email the only life lesson that she walked away with is that authority is blind, and does not care if you’re actually trying, just if you do what they ask when its convenient for them.
Nope, you’re right. Some Professors believe their own press and think that their “Universe” is all that exists and they are the Gods who everyone else should bow down to.
Professors are Employees delivering the product (Knowledge) and Students are the Paying Consumers.
I TOTALLY agree. I just posted a similar rant. I’m sick of all of this “would you show up to a meeting with your boss an hour late?” crap. This student clearly cares about her education and her future, or she wouldn’t take the initiative to “shop” for a class that will best fit her needs.
This professor is just a butt-hurt egoist using his authority to instill fear into all of his students by making a humiliating public example out of this student’s “disruption”.
You get the grade if you do the work which the professor deems worthy of earning that grade. Degrees are not held hostage – you don’t have the right to a degree if you don’t do the work. Sometimes, doing the work is showing proper classroom conduct and following rules. Sometimes, rules are strict due to some students taking advantage of less strict ones. You say that education is not an obligation, but it is, if you attend a university. You are obligated to do some particular in order to prove a level of competency to get a degree. No, education is not obligatory if you do not go to school. Then you won’t have to show up for class on time. If you want to get a good grade of a class, sometimes you have to show up on time. If it’s a requirement you can’t handle, then it would mean you can’t handle showing up on time for jobs, meetings, etc. Those can have schedule conflicts, too, after all.
They’re BOTH entitled cowards writing snarky emails for the sake of their own self-satisfaction. This entire interchange should have occurred face-to-face. They might have had a chance at finding some middle ground.
What would the middle ground be? The student should have argued for the professor to change his rules, and the professor would agree to treat the student specially and change his rules for that student in future? It would only matter if the student were in the class. The student emailed the professor because there was nothing to be gained by that student anymore, and the professor answered with sincere advice regarding the mistake the student made (whether by attending class late or by sending the initial email). And anyway, in my experience, if the professor is willing to say these things in an email, he is also willing to say them in person.
Here’s a brilliant idea: email the professor prior to the course and request a syllabus or reference text. Or, even better, meet with them prior to the course to discuss the content. A face to face meeting will allow you to build rapport and make an educated decision regarding the course. I do this all the time for my graduate engineering courses.
This customer/not a customer argument has come up repeatedly, and it’s misleading. When people say “students are customers”, they don’t mean (most people wouldn’t understand them to mean) only that they literally pay for a service; rather, they are making an analogy between the students and certain kinds of customers – the kinds we think of when we say, “the customer is always right” – the customers of restaurants, or interior decorators. It’s this analogy that is wrong. Even though technically a student may pay for a service, or someone else may pay for it on his or her behalf, this doesn’t mean that the rules governing your relationship with your waiter are the same as the rules governing your relationship with your professor. In order for college education to work, professors need to have a certain kind of authority, which students must respect (by the same token, there need to be checks and balances to protect students from abuses of authority). Every time someone says, “students are customers, they pay the professors’ salary”, they are saying something that is true in a trivial sense but false and misleading in any important sense – and it is this latter, false implication that people who say this want other people to accept.
Yes, Students ARE literally paying for a service/product. Being insulted publicly by an egotistical Professor is not how a business should be treating its customers.
Are there lessons to be learned by the student in this incident about politeness and punctuality? Of course. Should the lesson be “taught” via humiliation and condescension? No.
Professors are not Lord God Masters of the Universe even if they grow to feel that way in the Bubbles of their own making.
Bryan, if students paid professors out of their pockets on a class-by-class basis, you might have a point. However, you are wrong. Universities and schools are not businesses. They are not there to sell you a diploma. You must EARN a diploma. In order to earn that diploma, you have to demonstrate that you have learned what’s necessary to have that piece of paper. Your money pays for the infrastructure and salaries of the experts that are trying to teach you that knowledge. You pay for the right to be on campus. You do not pay the professors. The university does. You do not have the right to attend any class you wish. You have to compete with other students for spots in those classes, and many times, there are prerequisites. You do not have the right to act as you wish in a professor’s classroom. If the professor has attendance or tardiness policies in the syllabus, you are required to adhere to what the professor wants. Not what you want. You are not the boss in the classroom. The professor is. The professor determines content, conduct, and sets requirements for outcomes. You, the student, follow these, or you are removed from the classroom or you fail. You do not pay salaries. You are not an employer. You control nothing. You dictate nothing. You get into a classroom, and if you’re smart, you respect the person in front of you.
If you’re stupid, you act like you’re the employer. I had one – ONE – student tell me my first semester at a school that he paid tuition and therefore was my boss. I turned the projector off, got onto the school’s registration system, administratively dropped him from the class, and told him to get out. He appealed it all the way up the line and got stonewalled. As a teacher, I have the right to determine what constitutes a disruption in my classroom, and to eliminate those disruptions. My administration backed me to the hilt, and most administrations would. And you know what? It was the first day of class in a high-demand class, and another student took the opportunity to register and jump right in to take his place.
Universities receive money from a wide array of sources, much more than tuition. The Federal and state governments put money in. Federal grants-in-aid pay for supplies, some portions of research professors’ salaries, and infrastructure costs to the university. Capital campaigns draw in millions of donor dollars per year to many universities. Students definitely do not pay their professors’ salaries. This is a grave misconception, and a gross oversimplification.
I think it’s safe to assume that your position would be that since you, the taxpayer, pay taxes, that you are the employer of any given government employee, and are therefore the boss of any given government employee. Tell you what. Stroll onto a military base sometime, and tell the nice men at the gate that you’re their boss and that you want to be catered to. See how far that gets you. Your taxes pay for national parks. Go into the Grand Canyon National Park, light a bonfire, and drink beers around it. Hey, it’s YOUR park, right? See how quickly you end up slammed in jail. And, when you get slammed in jail, be sure to remind the guards that they draw government salaries and are therefore YOUR employees. Be sure to keep that attitude rolling when you tell the judge that you’re his boss because you pay taxes. After you serve a considerable time for vandalism and contempt, you can come back and tell me how wrong you are.
Not everything is a business. Not all services that you pay for make you a customer, or make you the boss. If you think that, then you’re the one in the bubble.
hear, hear, mr anonymous! well said.
Kid’s a fool, professor’s a jerk who saw an opportunity. That simple. Both sound like lousy people to be around. “Business leaders” of tomorrow my ass.
“Business leaders” of tomorrow my ass.
Not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that they will not be business leaders? I’d put my money on them being so! Have you hung out with some of that crowd?!
I’m totally trolling on you. 🙂 I’ll shut up now…
Maybe the Professor is a dick. Maybe he’s in the wrong. But guess what? That student just got a lesson on what the real world is like. You are going to have bosses, co-workers and clients that are also assholes. You either figure out how to navigate it or you fail. Life is not fair. Grow up and cope. I bet this student is sharp enough that he/she will get something valuable out of a mistake that perhaps a lot of people could make, but that he/she will certainly not make twice.
AS A JUSTICE ON THE SUPREME COURT I WOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED A LAWYER TO SHOW UP LATE FOR COURT WITHOUT PERMISSION GIVEN IN ADVANCE BECAUSE OF SOME UNFORSEEN CIRCUMSTANCE. CLR
First of all, you’re not a SC Justice. Second, this is a CLASS that this student is paying for, not a trial.
It doesn’t matter if they are paying for it or not. The prof is allowed to have rules of behavior for the classroom and to uphold them.
It’s the first day of class. That day can always be a bit confusing. Relax. If the student turns out to be a flake, let him/her flunk out. If the student turns out to be bright and hardworking, then give him/her a good grade.
The student wasn’t confused. The student was a flake already and had to deal with the consequences of that. And even this student could have quietly left the room, not sent a presumptuous email to the professor, come to class on time the next week, and received a good grade for the course. That final outcome was not impossible.
The kid is an MBA student, so they have, presumably, been to at least one college level class before. The first day of class is not confusing. This student is an idiot and the professor could have been a bit more professional. But if I had a dollar for every time I wanted to give someone the “personal responsibility” speech to a student, I’d be rich.
A lot of people are asserting that students are customers. In American capitalist terms, the student is paying for a product or service–either way you want to look at it. The student being the customer does not mean they can get whatever they want, though. This student bought the NYU “product,” and is entitled to a refund if he doesn’t like the product. But as long as a student is signed up at a college, they will get the product that that particular college provides. Personally, I would not want to pay for an education that taught me to have zero accountability for my plans and actions. Just my 2¢.
That professor can suck my cock lol.
Here’s the main problem for me: This is a GRAD student at the NYU Stern School – quite prestigious – this implies a level of intellectual maturity that itself would imply a capability to communicate. And in doing exactly that, I first point to WHAT was communicated:
“(2) considering that it was the first day of evening classes and I arrived 1 hour late (not a few minutes), it was more probable that my tardiness was due to my desire to sample different classes rather than sheer complacency.”
Umm, what? “…more probable…” This student actually believes that the professor, upon encountering this student entering his class an hour late, pondered the list of possibilities as to the reason for such an interruption, and should have naturally concluded – out of ALL possibilities – that he/she MUST have been sampling other classes – it’s the ONLY possibility! How could he NOT have just KNOWN that? It was so obvious!
Second, as a grad student, the grad program sets your schedule of classes each semester – which means this was just going to be one of the rare available elective credits that can be fit into what is likely a grueling grad schedule. So this student is going through all this likely for an elective, and expects the professor to just accommodate the student’s whimsical audition process of class selection…
Professor didn’t necessarily need to be so profanely blunt, but the student needs to grow up…
Simple – This behavior by the student was unacceptable. If the professor were his boss, would he walk into a meeting an hour late? If he were a client, would he do the same thing? No!!!! And if the student does not realize that – then he does not belong in a graduate program.
Gawd, all of you sound like a bunch of whiny b*tches. Seriously, the “disruption” this /may/ have caused would literally be less than a second if the professor would just let the student come in and take a seat in the back of the room. Most students in the class probably wouldn’t even have noticed this student coming in late. Instead, it was the /professor/ that decided to disrupt his own class to reprimand this student. I’ll bet that most of you complaining about what a “huge disruption” she caused, or how “rude” she was have never been to a class in a university. When people come in late, it doesn’t disrupt a damn thing unless the professor lets it- I guarantee you she didn’t come stampeding in with crash cymbals.
And for all of you saying “would you show up to a job an hour late?” Guess what: A LECTURE CLASS ISN’T A JOB. This student is paying for the opportunity to gain the best education she possibly can for her chosen career. It’s OKAY for students to “shop” around a class or two to make sure that they /are/ getting the best education they can for their particular career goals. Unfortunately, this professor decided to be a dick, and he is subsequently causing potential harm to this young woman’s prospective education by not allowing her to see if his class would be a fit for her.
And yes, she /could/ have attended a different class each week. She /could/ have emailed the TA beforehand. But she didn’t. The professor reacted (harshly), and she is now dealing with the consequences. It was totally appropriate for her to write her email expressing her opinion on the matter.
Her letter was polite, eloquent, and conveyed her valid point. His letter was condescending, elitist, arrogant, and at points vicious.
And by the way: I’m a teacher too. $hit happens. Kids come in late. Kids leave early. Kids don’t always tell you these things. If you let something as trivial as somebody showing up late to class disrupt your teaching, no matter what age level you are teaching, then you aren’t a very good teacher. It’s a testament to poor management skills, poor attitude, and even poor policy- he could have NO idea why any student would ever show up late. Maybe their car broke down, or their was an accident slowing down traffic. Should they be denied the opportunity to attend the last half-hour of a class that they are paying for because of external forces hindering them from arriving on time?
And if arriving late to anything for any reason means you “don’t care” or “aren’t professional”, then I sure as hell hope none of you have ever been late to anything ever for any reason at all, because if you have, then you’re a bleeding heart hypocrite.
How elitist of people to want respect.
How disrespectful of people to walk quietly into the back of a lecture hall. *yawn*
The professor very likely had problems with tardiness before. It sets a very poor classroom tone when people come and go as they please. It makes the class seem as though it is not to be taken seriously. And arguments about excuses are not very useful. Sometimes strict policies are there for a reason. If the student had car trouble or medical trouble, then the consequences would have been the same. The student is not merely paying for the information in the class but also the class policies.
You use the term “kids.” Graduate students, at a good institution, are typically seen more as professionals at that point in their education than as “kids.” If this were an undergraduate class, then it would be a slightly different matter. As it is, graduate school is difficult, and it should be difficult in order to maintain its value.
The problem with the student’s letter is the presumption that he’she has more insight than the professor. Trying to teach your professors is just a bad idea if you are a student. It really does, in fact, show a lot of disrespect.
Thank you, John. Your comment is spot on.
You’re right, the classroom is not a job- for the student, but it is for the lecturer. Indeed, the professor is not the student’s *direct* employee, and articulating exactly what the rights of students are due to their indirectly paying at least a portion of the lecturer’s salary are not necessary, as the entire metaphor is inept.
Both parties also seem to enjoy the cowardice of email.
In the end, the one thing the student learned is that this particular class may not be one he/she wishes to attend.
Prof. Galloway’s perfectly pithy and comically constructive reply would validate my hopes for the next generation… If I had any, or they deserved any. As I am deeply, intimately acquainted with their overarching worthlessness, stupidity and dipshititude, however, I must, regrettably, deem this as pissing in the wind. Brave, bold, beautifully stated… But ultimately useless urination, all the same. The good Professor is a single salmon struggling against an overpowering current of vacuosity and feckless fuckupedness.
And what does that say about your generation that raised us to be “worthless, stupid dipshits”?…….
That we didn’t beat you enough, expect enough of you, or require you to transcend your permanent adolescences.
I am currently a university instructor in this same “younger” generation. I quite agree with the professor. So hello, I’d like to introduce myself, evidence against your generational argument.
You may not have hope for me, but I have hope for you. Good luck transcending your own permanent adolescence soon!
Congratulations on proving the exception to the rule. But don’t tell me that you gaze out upon the vast and irredeemable sea of vanity, self-obsession, ignorance, apathy and responsibility-avoidance that is the under-twenty-five generation with ANY degree of confidence, reverence, or, even, tolerance. They are, to an oppressive certainty, very nearly uniformly a gaggle of grasping, mewling, helpless, useless, brainless twits, overconfident in their haphazard so-called “education”, brimming with mistakenly perceived worth, devoid of any but the most locust-like purpose, and utterly without work ethic, gratitude, humility, modesty, or value. They are a plague of boastful, boisterous boobs.
My only issue is with a response to this message… it is not just the under 25… I know many people in their 30’s-40’s and 50’s that do everything they can to blame their short comings, mistakes, and faults on others. This “it’s someone else’s fault” mentality did not just magically appear. It was taught. Hell, look at congress; there is the epitome of this mindset and it has been going on for many generations!
Isn’t this just an example of two people writing completely unnecessary emails to each other, in an attempt to bolster their own egos/justify their own misguided actions? I don’t see how the the situation necessitated (1) the student’s email to the professor to simply express their “disappointment” in the professor’s behavior after supposedly already registering for another class, or (2) the professor replying to the student’s email at all (not to mention forwarding it to the entire class) after finding out that the student had registered for another class and was no longer his student.
I can’t seem to find – on either end of this correspondence – any evidence of genuine intention to guide, teach, or provide “feedback,” for or from either party. It reads to me, considerably similar to a conversation that might happen in a hypothetical high school cafeteria between to seventeen-year-old’s with advanced vocabularies.
Just because a professor is teaching a student who is no longer his student, it means that it isn’t teaching? Getting advice from professors can sometimes be like pulling teeth, so even if it is harsh, it is honest and should help the student improve their conduct. He/She may encounter similar professors in his/her academic career.
The student is also trying to teach the professor, though I tend to see that as presumptuous and a subversion of the standard relationship – it’s not something that should be viewed positively. Feedback is great for professors, but I have a feeling that the student’s attitude is nothing the professor has not seen before. In fact, the strictness of his policy may be a response to too many students arguing on behalf of their tardiness.
Are people saying that professors should always be “nice” even when enforcing their minimum expectations for their classes? Either way he said he wanted to sample the class so he got his sample of it right there. If he thinks he can’t meet the minimum expectations for the class, he might as well just not take it and select from the other two he sampled. There’s not really much to say–you can’t expect all professors and all people you work with to be what you want them to be; the world isn’t as fair as that. You just do what you do best and make the best choices you can make. Not all of your expectations would be met but it would be your own decision whether to challenge yourself to adapt to your failed expectations or to just dwell in it for as long as you please, not like the latter choice would change anything except provide some empty self-satisfaction.
The professor sounds like an entitled and insecure brat. Those 80 students must have a dismal attention span if they can’t handle an “interruption” so insignificant as the door opening and closing. Besides, there must be a thousand legitimate reasons for being 15 minutes late to a class, and it’s idiotic to deprive that student of the remaining hour or so of the lecture to satisfy your own self-righteousness. Then to e-mail that student’s response to an entire class? I can’t even comprehend the kind of arrogance it takes to muster up that kind of reaction
I may have a somewhat warped conception of tardiness though, as I came and went whenever I pleased through my first 2 years or so of my undergraduate degree. I was forced to work full-time to pay for it all, so I didn’t have much of a choice. I even enrolled in 2 courses during the same time slot if I knew the courses would be easy enough. In lecture halls of 100 or sometimes 200 students, nobody seemed to notice or give a damn. I managed a chem B.S. cum laude regardless, and thankfully without encountering any professors like this.
1) The student was an hour late to class, not 15 minutes. And I’m not sure “legitimate” is a good description for tardiness. If the professor had exceptions to the tardiness rule, then perhaps that would be a factor; however, as the case stands, it is not. It’s a simple matter of the student’s ability to deal with consequences. The professor is not only teaching students, but training students, and if he feels that a certain level of tardiness is to be discouraged, then it’s completely within his rights to implement the rule in his class.
2) Your comparisons to your undergraduate education are fine, but this was a graduate class. Typically, a higher level of conduct is expected at stage of the student’s education.
The professors feed themselves from our tuition money man. Who do you think we’re getting all the loans for? Those dickheads. They should be more respectful because without us they can feed on shit.
And where would students be without the professors? Without knowledge and certainly without degrees. When it comes to filling the jobs in whatever field, the professors are probably more qualified than students who haven’t been educated. Students need professors, too, I’m sorry to say.
As it is, students pay money for the professor to teach them, however the professor teaches them. If they do not like a particular professor, then they should pay another professor to teach them. Then that professor would need to change teaching styles and standards. It seems, though, that this particular professor has no lack of students, so he is able to run his class as he sees fit. He does, after all, have other students in the class who are paying for his particular style of teaching.
I guess I’m just not sure what makes students think they are better than professors? They are essentially the same in all qualitative regards, except that students have less education. So I’m not sure how they should have more power in the relationship.
I get the sense you are about to graduate Magna Cum Douchebag.
First, forget that this student is at NYU to become one of tomorrow’s “business leaders” – meaning that he should be training now by cutting people off from their livelihoods and hiring desperate workers in poorer countries under criminal working conditions, or just finding a free lunch in the FIRE sector, by stealing from pensioners or borrowing free money from taxpayer-schmucks and using it to speculate abroad.
More importantly, did this professor stop to think that he is employed by a real estate corporati- I mean university that charges students $40k a year, on top of nearly $30k in living expenses? He’s not a “professor” in the sense of someone who teaches at an institution of higher learning in the majority of the world outside of the U.S., where education is financed by society as a whole in exchange for the societal benefits that inhere in having a well-educated population, and as such should be respected by students as a sacred bond between society and themselves – he’s a professor at a diploma mill that turns high school graduates into $150k+ debt peons. He should consider himself lucky that this student didn’t decide to use his classroom as a $5k toilet.
“Diploma mill” – this is the notion that the professor is struggling against. Students feel they are paying for their degree, professors feel students are paying for an education. The administration is caught between the two ideologies, and it is there where the current battle on this issues takes place. I have colleagues who are told they are not allowed to fail students, whereas I at a different university will put extra time (my “free” time) into working with students to make sure that they learn what I think they should. Universities in the US are not entirely pointless, because professors are struggling to avoid that. If this professor gave up that fight and had no standards for his classroom conduct, then it would greatly devalue the worth of the institution.
So the professor is just in the wrong here. Lets compare their respective ways of handeling the situation. The students email was very polite, well written, and personal. The student did not bad mouth the prof to all of her friends, or post a scathing review on Rate my Prof, but rather approached a problem she had in respectful and calm manner. It is to her credit that she took steps to figure out why the prof dismissed her and instead of sending an angry email calmly reported what she saw as reasonable explanation for her actions and a problem with professors behaviour.
In contrast we have the prof took this opportunity to exemplify almost all of the qualities purportedly lacking in the student. By emailing his response to everyone in the class the professor clearly failed at “having manners, [and] demonstrating a level of humility” and arguably also at respecting the institution. University should be about self motivated learning, a student who is willing to try multiple classes to see which ones (and which professors) speak to that student is exactly the kind of students most professors wish for. I guarantee you the same professor complains about the students who signed up for his class and barely care. Likely if more students took the initiative of the woman who found so unreasonable a much greater percentage of his (and all) classes would be filled with motivated and engaged students.
Not only that, but his math is clearly off, which is always just sad. If she is sampling three classes, then the average time per class would be 35 minutes not 15-20 (allowing for 5 minute travel time) for a 2 hour night class. If it was like my night classes (3 hours, which I think is standard), she would have only left a single class, the odds being pretty good that she left during a break, hoping to make it into the next class during that ones break. His assumption that she would choose to spend the final hour in class smacks of the very arrogance he purports the student to have. Similarly his attempt to justify his behaviour using risk analysis is shoddy work, at my university at least the standard was to let students come in late, the assumption being they had a good reason for being late (especially an hour late). Thus the student was engaging in perfectly rational behaviour (of course it is possible that NYU business school has very different norms, in which case I would wrong in my assertion)
Professors who don’t appreciate class shopping deserve every apathetic student they receive. Apart from that, the student may have had a highly legitimate reason (medical for example) reason for being an hour late, and having no way of knowing that the prof instituted such a policy would have shown up only to be casually rebuffed. For me this possibility is dramatically ruder than quietly sneaking into a class already in session. In my experience (including taking and teaching 3 hours classes), the only time students coming in creates a disruption is when a professor chooses to make an example of the student. Of course its possible she did come in a particular disruptive way, but based upon the tone of the email I expect not.
The student took his/her time to teach the professor about teaching. I don’t know about you, but I consider that presumptuous. The student didn’t need to know why she was kicked out of class – if I came in late, and had done nothing else wrong, my tardiness would be the most likely reason by far.
Why is class shopping frustrating for professors? Well, perhaps because when students are not in their class, particularly on the first day, they miss information that is fundamental for the course. When you spend an hour teaching information to everyone who came on-time to the class, it is frustrating to teach it later to the one student who was late. It would have been far more appropriate for the student to email the professor beforehand regarding her plan to shop for classes and arrive to class late. The tardiness policy on any other day is also sound. If the student has a medical problem and misses an hour of class, then the student must face the consequences of that, whether it is missing an hour or all three hours. Life comes with consequences, many of them unfortunate.
So you are seriously arguing that it would less work for the professor to receive emails from EVERY student who was thinking of taking the class and spend time composing responses to each of them (presumably with individualized questions about the nature of the course), than to possible have to reteach an hour of class to the few students who cared enough to search for classes they were truly passionate about. Similarly, it would have been far more disruptive for the professor to create a list of all the students (even if it was a list of 1) who said they wanted to shop the class, and then compare names with students when they entered. A reasonable amount of leniency during the shopping period both encourages academic engagement and saves every needly emails.
In this particular case the student seemed motivated to learn, had she chosen to take the class, I suspect she would have found out the missed information from fellow students rather than using the professors time, acknowledging reasonable that it was her choice to miss the first hour (this is based on the fact that she asked around and discovered the late policy before emailing the professor).
Lastly, I truly don’t understand the logic behind punishing someone with medical problems who missed a single hour of class by forcing them to miss the rest. Of course life has consequences, but that doesn’t give anyone the right to create unnecessary ones.
School is not the same as shopping at Target. And civilized people do not walk in on other people like that. It is disrespectful to every one in the room. Whiny brats, all of you, incompetent whiny brats siding with the kid. You all should grow up. You are so privileged to be going to a high end school in the first place. Me me me me me. Schools, churches, and the government are different. And one reason we have higher education is to show you nit-wits that money is not god.
Reblogged this on JAPANsociology and commented:
With a new academic year starting this week, and students scurrying into class late on the very first day, here’s a reminder to get to class on time. I’ve had students walk in 30, 45, even 60 minutes late … something I would never have dared to do as a student.
Although I have to admit that as soon as I give the “get to class on time or else” speech, I will inevitably struggle to make it to class on time the following week. It’s karma coming to get me.
So get to class on time … or else you might get an email like this one.
This professor reeks of misogyny. Our society is filled with arrogant idiots like this professor who take every opportunity to display their power. His utterly arrogant email was both rude and smacks of Patriarchy. My guess is that he would never do this to a male student. The victim in question should seek a reprimand for making this private issue such a public one, and would benefit from taking some women’s studies courses to study just why this over-dependence on “logic” is hateful.
It’s a lucky thing for all of us that you know his motivations. Especially since the gender of the student seem ambiguous.
And just because a woman is slighted does not mean that she was slighted because she was a woman. I, as a woman, would never dream of complaining on grounds of sexism simply because I had angered a professor.
Let us put it this way.
If you were the teacher, and a student walks into your classroom that late, would it offend you? Probably so.
This has nothing to do with gender or power, but mutual respect.
If a teacher does not reprimand a student for such a disrespectful act, then what does this say about the professor?
It indicates to the remaining students that the professor is a push-over.
No one has the accurate perspective to chime in on this argument until they have stood in front of a class.
I don’t know what she was expecting from a stern business school.
Oh, well played. Very well played, indeed.
Seriously, this is how profs spend free time? Not to mention how many grammatical errors are in these posts! Try teaching, and this comes from a fellow teacher. You two are the example of why educators in this country get ostracized.
Perhaps there is just as much decorum at NYU’s business school, from students and professors, as there is at the lowest regarded schools. The fact that this showed up on a public blog to be posted on should be unseemly for professor, student and NYU. Finally the pretentiousness of the statement that being admitted into a well regarded business school has deemed someone a future business leader is ludicrous. People who actually get out there, work hard and make the right business decisions will be our future business leaders. No classroom can teach someone actual business experience.
As a professor at a large state university, I can say this: “kids these days” are just fine. Yes, every so often, there’s one who doesn’t respect the institution, or the rules, or whatever. I suspect this is no different than when I was a student oh so many years ago. A huge problem with those who don’t respect the rules–no one has called them on their behavior consistently. So, kudos, Professor G. (Remember folks, this email wouldn’t have happened if the student hadn’t been so ‘helpful’ in the initial email.) On the other hand, well, it was a heavy hand. I once emailed a student who had missed class too often, and received a sincere apology and the explanation that she didn’t realize anyone even noticed whether she was in class or not. Professor G’s student doesn’t sound particularly alienated, but anytime a student is falling out of line, I am interested in why. Sometimes they are jerks, just like some of my colleagues.
And really–other profs here–you seriously don’t know how to get students to stop talking? I just stop speaking and stare at the perpetrators, saying I’ll continue when they finish their conversation. Works every time.
All analogies with the first day of work and all “life is tough” wisdom apply only if the grace period to shop around for classes assumed by the student is not a policy in effect. And judging by the response of the professor, there is no lack of such policy, otherwise he should have taken the time to indicate it just as much as he took the time to offer life lessons and to indicate the logic and behavior of the student. If the policies of the school entitle the student to shop around the first day of classes, then there is no self-entitlement on the part of the student and the professor’s thoughts should have been addressed to whatever respective body rather than the student and the rest of the class. It is the professor who is full of self-entitlement shit by refusing to shed the authority of the professor and addressing the problem for what it is: administrative rather than disciplinary.
None of which is to say that if such a grace period exists, the student does not have to be prepared in advance about what classes to attend, but only that the disruption of class under this period merits more grace than terseness.
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[…] https://doanie.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/mean-professor-tells-student/ […]
The student was humiliated and felt they needed recompense (you were mean, and as such lost a student.) The professor is equally as immature and felt they needed to affirm their status. Each of these individuals are of the same blood. I don’t applaud either of them. A fair dose of humility would serve each one well.
[…] Mean Professor Tells Student to “get your sh*t together”–Things Doanie Likes […]
Why do you assume the student is female (“the professor told HER to leave”)? The professor’s letter indicates to the contrary (“the send button on HIS laptop”). For obvious reasons, this careless assumption on your part is irritating.
Keira knightly is a liberal.
They all think the same .
The professor is likely lib to but his heart realizes full lib like Keira and some of you others is just asinine. Least I hope he gets it now , with the rude behavior he has seen by the ilk of his youngers.
What in the blathering idiot are you talking about?
The article should be called “Disrespectful student gets put in his place” not “Mean professor…” There is no respect in our society anymore. The professor has a large class to deal with – even 15 minutes late is disruptive to the rest of the class. People need to be 15 minutes early, not plan to be late. Then, the email sent seemed to indicate that the professor would be deprived of this brilliant student – really? Some 20-somethings need to realize that professors have already earned their MBA or PhD – and that they, themselves, have not. They are there to learn – respect is part of learning.
Student is not the customer. Society is.
Unless you are saying that the university was 100% built using private funds.
It is probably not my place to say this, for my tardiness is legendary, however i think the professor is right. Or at least not in the wrong. He has the right to expect civil behaviour from his students. Other professors have the right to tolerate the lack of it.
The behavior of the student was not uncivil by merely showing up late. If the student had shown up making noise yelling out being disruptfull; that would have been uncivil. This student merely showed up to make an informed decision (probably about the professors teaching style) on whether to take the class. There is nothing wrong with “shopping around” for the right fit for you this is a decision to ensure success in the class. The University needs to adopt and make all professors adhere to an open door policy to some extent IMHO.
Open Door policies do not mean walk in any time you feel like it. They mean that any one is welcome and will be heard. The student was impolite by common courtesy and classroom rules that were set. Please see how sampling a class should be done in other posts. Showing up 40 minutes into a lecture is not the way… it breaks the stride of the lecture, and may cause those that have been in attendance the entire time to lose track of what has been transpiring.
Degree of uncivil is relative. However, do note that random students streaming in and out throughout the first 1 hour of the lecture will be irritating, to say the least. Especially if the class is small.
Hence i believe the professor is still within his rights to make a point that students do not come late for his lessons.
Maybe I am speaking in a “Gibbsesque” way, but I believe that the professor was intending this to be a wake up call to the student much as a slap to the back of the head and decided that this far into the game (graduate studies), one that many others may need to experience. Why would he not respond to this student to explain not only why the action was wrong to do in class, but any other aspect of life? For those that have said, “it only interrupts for a moment and move on;” that is not the case at all. It interrupts the flow of the lecture and can even cause a subject change. Let alone why would it be ok for this student to break a standing rule and not others. People like this are one of the reasons others have to wait for 2hrs in a doctors waiting room because they do not have the courtesy to be on time for their appointment.
For those complaining about this generation or that… The generations before have plenty of their own screw ups (past wars, the state of the environment, the economy, etc.); just as those coming up will make plenty more, I am sure due to the two main syndromes that are continuously growing in this wonderful country (I am not saying this last lightly… I love America, but fear what it is slowly becoming): 1) no one is ever at fault apparently, it is always the parents, the TV, the music, video games, books… anyone or anything else’s fault but the individual that does an action. 2) all or nothing… am so sick of this mentality that if one person screws up everyone has to pay for the idiot; look at how many school children can no longer take an aspirin at school with out a parents permission, a doctors note, and a nurses watchful eye due to illegal drugs in our schools; or can no longer take a plastic knife to school to spread peanut butter because it is a weapon… Do not even get me started on the gun issues this country is facing.
Hold individuals responsible, people, not everybody else that is courteous and law abiding… for godsake, the student made a mistake and compounded it by writing a thoughtless message. The professor responded in an unprofessional, but well stated message back. I see nothing wrong with putting blunt, forthright information out there that might wake one person up. More than likely though, the student huffed and deleted it think they were greatly abused.
I have a slightly different spin:
1) Let’s give the student credit for being “resourceful.” “Shopping” classes is very creative and certainly good preparation for a life in the business world where being self-serving, opportunistic, and predatory without conscience are prerequisites to success.
2) For this student to send the email follow-up was pretty foolish though. If you are going to be a Taker… learn to not ask for permission (before or after). While I don’t subscribe to this way of living personally, I’ve noticed that many current business leaders are heralded as heroes for being and acting just this way.
3) So really, we could say that Flagrantly Tardy (student) is actually astute in following the business role models our culture holds up as “successful” and thereby worthy of emulation. Right? Sad but true.
The professor was pretty “stern” about the whole thing, wasn’t he??
I have been in the field of education for almost a half-century and I’ve never heard of students “shopping” for classes. That’s ridiculous. I’m siding with the professor and am glad he works at a school that allows him the freedom to respond as he did.
I feel he was arrogant and abused his position and the student has every right to shop around for a class if they are not sure if they will be interested in it or not or even mesh with the professor. This is called making an informed decision and says a lot about their decision making skills IMHO.
At Harvard, the first week is dedicated to shopping, and to the best of my knowledge it is the same for most, if not all, of the Ivy League schools.
Came here to comment on how both the student and professor need social skill lessons, then discovered that the real outrage here is the dismal stupidity displayed by a lot of these previous posts.
So many self-important, insolent morons. Apalling.
I think this is a University issue and I also feel that the professor abused his position IMHO.
[…] Mean Professor Tells Student to “get your sh*t together”–Things Doanie Likes […]
The way I see it, the student is the customer and is paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a class. Maybe they had a bad experience with professors,like myself, and wanted to ensure they paid for the right teacher. I see no problem with this if they were quite and polite when exiting and entering the classes…
Much like in the business world, professor, you can get interviewed at several jobs (shop around) to see which one fits you best. That is what the student was doing. YOU need to get your sh** together and just learn to “drop it” and let students be students… Or in this case, let customers be customers.
I’m with the teacher on this. This person clearly has grown up “privilaged”, shall we say. This kind of upbringing that does not accompany lessons or a general sense of responsibility or fear of consequences. She grew up doing whatever the hell she wanted, and if someone didn’t like it, her folks would clean it up or she could just complain to said defending party and she’d get her way paved for her.
My brother’s married to a bitch like that. We need less of that and more teachers like Galloway.
Or we need to show more praise to the teachers that are already like Galloway, but we don’t acknowledge them, because the pro-corporate, pro-private education media outlets are flooding our ears with messages of “Teachers are paid too much.” “They’re done at 3 in the afternoon.” “It’s a fat-cat salary.” “The teachers unions are abusing their privilages” “they’re making our kids stupider.”
Maybe my graduate school was just an outlier, but I had a syllabus ( with all class policies) , required text lists and reading assignments in my email box a month before class even started. We had assignments due the very first day of class. I don’t understand how a graduate student doesn’t know what classes they intend / need to take ?
This student was not signed up for the class merely observing to see if they wanted to take the class. This would make them 1 not late and two not privy to the rules or a syllabus which only students receive on the first day of class which is what this was. There are many graduate students who are not sure of a certain professors teaching style and if they would benefit from learning under them my husband being one of them when he was in graduate school. This is an arrogant professor with a sense of empowerment which he abuses IMHO.
[…] Mean Professor Tells Student to “get your sh*t together” […]
i love that nearly everyone (including the author of the article) is referring to this student as a female when it the professor clearly references them as male in the response back.
except, of course, for the people that already brought this point up…numerous times.
Gender does not matter it is the point behind the feud that does. The University is at fault IMHO.
Seriously, the University is at fault?? What the… ? The prof needed to be a bit more professional in his response, but the student was clearly in the wrong. Again do not care how much money is paid to or by whom!!! Common courtesy, people, for god sake, common courtesy!
Student was a bit of a prick, professor was a much bigger prick.
I have been reading the comments on here and I am wondering what happened to common courtesy and respect. I am 60…yes, I guess that makes me “old” I have managed retail, I have owned my own business, I volunteer at numerous places in my church and community,lately I have gone back to school. None of my professors would stand for this behavior. How much can you learn about a class or a professor’s style of teaching in 20 minutes? I call the BS rule…if it looks like BS, and smells like BS, it most likely is…BS. Most college professors have rules, …heck, LIFE has rules usually they are based on common courtesy and responsibility. If this student showed up at a job where she worked for me an hour late she would be fired unless she had a damned good excuse.
She is not showing up late she is observing and this is on the shoulders of the University in my opinion. They should have all professors adhere to an open door policy for students. I know there are students that do not have to sit in on a class and pull straight A’s (online students, independent study) I myself know within one email from a teacher if they are going to mesh with me, not all personalities do, and regardless of popular belief a professor can and will hold whether they like a student personally in regard as to whether they will allow extra effort to be recognized or ignored. There is no BS here the professor is clearly arrogant and rude she was not showing up late she was observing and this should be on the University for not slotting in times for observation of courses. They need to rethink their policies. It is bettter to know before signing up for a class whether or not you are interested in it. Wanting to make an informed decision says a lot about her character IMHO.
SHE WAS LATE!
Sampling is fine. Show up when the class starts, leave when it ends. The round of lessons (I.E. if it is a Mon, Weds, Fri class) go to the other class you are interested in and not this one. THAT is how you sample a class. It is polite, non-disruptive, and gives the student a clear understanding of how the professor and workload are!
Remind me the next time we have an appt together to show up 40 minutes after we said we’d meet and tell you I’m not late.
As a former college student I agree that it’d be nice and maybe even fair to be given the chance during the first week to assess classes but you can’t. Lesson one at school: LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Get over it. We have to work within certain rules and parameters in our professional lives. Being disruptive to others for our own needs or in the name of is selfish.
Wow, this is obviously an area that could benefit from some research! There are so many opinions. The definitions of civility, respect for others and common decency have all been some how changed by recent generations, as I am sure they have changed in previous generations. When I attended undergrad every professor made up their own rules for their class, some locked the door, some told students to leave if they were late, some didn’t care one way or the other, but as a STUDENT who potentially could get kicked out of school or receive a poor grade in class, I watched my behavior. I had respect for my professors and did not get to express my side of things. Open Door policy and openness of a professor, doesn’t mean I get to say what I want to them. What the professor said, is what I did. If I were to say something, that could be considered mouthing back and being disrespectful. When a professor, administrator or anyone walked by on the sidewalk, we acknowledged them and said hello. From my own experiences now some students run into me on the sidewalk without looking up and without saying excuse me. Many students want to “make a deal” when it comes to their grade.
I agree education is way overpriced, no one should leave school with a mortgage, but I would make sure I did my best to stay in school and finish. I wouldn’t want to sass mouth a professor, especially considering how much I am paying. Unfortunately, education is a service we pay to have someone else tell us what to do. It sucks, but that’s how it works. You don’t get to buy your grade. You are paying for an overpriced seat, in an overpriced classroom, at an overpriced school, to have an “underpaid” professor tell you what to do. Get used to it or drop out. Your choice.
I am one of those people who is going to leave school with the equivalent of a mortgage. I went to a state undergrad to “save money,” I’m now at a state law school (not in my home state). I have always been respectful of professors and the process. However, the law school experience has made me question whether “it sucks, but that’s the way it is” is good enough anymore. I am paying a significant amount of money for an education that is not worth all that much in today’s market and I am being, effectively, psychologically tortured to get it. I am forced to compete against my friends/colleagues for grades in curved classes, and in one class, we’re being asked to grade each other with regard to class participation. In a curved class, it’s pretty clear that the incentives are misaligned with regard to honesty.
While I agree with the professor that it’s rude to interrupt a class and ruder still to write her professor an e-mail admonishing him/her for his/her policies, it was unnecessary for the professor to write the “get your shit together” letter. And e-mailing it to the entire class was just a way for this person to assert his/her power by humiliating the student.
When college was indeed a privilege– when families did not risk their financial futures to send their children to be educated– the dynamic was rightly different. Now, however, that is not the case. A good friend of mine works 2 jobs and is still paying off her student debt from undergrad (and that was 8 years ago). She can’t afford to buy a car less than 10 years old, she can’t afford a nice place to live, and every time something bad or unexpected happens, she is in danger of her credit taking another hit because she might not make the student loan payment on time. It’s wrong.
So if this girl wanted to shop around a little to see which class was going to be worth her astronomical NYU tuition and possibly decades of paying it off… can we really blame her?
Wow telling someone to drop out? There is no wonder the youth of our world are in serious trouble. Education is very important and people should not have to get used to being treated as they are not worthy because they are not as educated as a professor. I think some professors are just plain arrogant and let their degrees go to their heads. That being said they deserve to be underpaid as to any other teachers that can not find it in themselves to treat people with respect. He could have asked her to please step out of the class with him and addressed it with her without embarrassment which is why I am sure she emailed him. I am going to be one of those people leaving with a mortgage as well an my husband is a professor and would never treat a student with the amount of disrespect this professor has shown. He is clearly arrogant and self centered. I think all college professors should have an open door policy with their students is this not the reason they became professors in the first place in order to teach and let others learn from their expertise? Most do but there are many that do it clearly for the money and those are the ones who need to get it together!
Okay, saying “drop out” was a bit harsh…”tongue in cheek”…I meant there are always other choices. I do feel some things shouldn’t be up for debate. A professor’s teaching philosophy is one. Arguing with this professor, whom she didn’t take anyway won’t get her anywhere, MBA programs are often limited with professors one can take anyway, and let’s hope she didn’t have to take the professor in the future. She was attempting to shame the professor or put the professor in their place. That was wrong and unacceptable, and frankly couldn’t possibly get her anywhere! When did it become acceptable to question the authority of a professor, or does the professor have any authority? The professor just turned it back on her. I felt she was saying, “How dare this professor tell me to leave, who in the hell does he think he is?”. I don’t care how much someone has to pay, they don’t get to make up their own rules. The value of their degree becomes meaningless. Then it becomes, “Oh you bought your degree”. Part of “earning” a degree is learning these important life lessons and yes, putting up with some things you’d rather not. That is very true of life as well!
Letting go of the little things can often lead to bigger problems, so sometimes it is the principle of matter. He could have said for the 1000 time, “Miss how can I help you”? Then she would’ve thought it is okay to interrupt every class in such an ignorant (no intent to do harm) but nevertheless disrespectful way. So her ego got bruised a little. I bet she won’t try that again and neither will any of the people who took his class. I do agree the whole system could use an overhaul.
We all have definitions of what we consider “rude”. I consider it rude when someone walks against the traffic on the sidewalk, or when slow people don’t stay to the right. (People from Europe who come here may differ in their opinions), though I do hope they learn our customs here. I consider it rude when I say hello and someone doesn’t say it back. I consider it rude when someone won’t take their hand off of their phone for the minute it takes to turn their blinker on, all the while holding up traffic. I see so many accidents where someone is on the phone crying because they hurt someone else; all because they couldn’t be bothered to pay attention and put both hands on the wheel. They never thought to themselves that “not paying full attention to their surroundings” could hurt someone else. I find it rude when one student feels their situation is more unique or important than anyone else. I find these things rude, because the individuals doing these things aren’t considerate of those around them. There seems to be is no civility with these instances. I find that very selfish. I might even think it is rude for a professor to tell me to leave a class depending upon the tone the professor used, but I don’t write an email to each one of those people. First, I’d be writing emails all day, everyday, LOL. I feel the student should have let this go instead she let her self righteous anger get the best of her, but the conversation it sparked is probably one that needs to happen for other issues that have been brought up from this regarding education, costs, issues of authority, respect, etc…. The professor gave a knee jerk reaction to this student, and most likely this professor became fed up, which puts the professor in the wrong. We all would like to send “those” kinds of emails, but we don’t because of what might happen.
When some talk about entitlement, it doesn’t have to do with money. It has do with the idea, that some student feel “entitled” to explain or defend their side of a story instead of just taking what comes at them as “the law of the land”. I don’t find the professor telling her to leave too far out of the ordinary or too from that professor’s authority over their class. Then again these are just my opinions. Let’s hope something good comes from this 🙂
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Considering what has been and will be said in the real world, “get your sh*t together” is rather polite in today’s business environment. I side fully with the professor and kudos to his method as this student-to-be-professional will see this entering a global workforce.
I feel sorry for this generation of students. Their parents (my generation) raised them to be self entitled and narcissistic. But the students don’t/won’t see it. They won’t until they grow a few more decades in life. I’m sounding patronizing. I am. I blame my generation of parenting trying to help their children grow and know they matter but instead created entitled children who assume they come first regardless.
It’s the same as a driver who misses their exit and instead of acknowledging their error they stop their car on the shoulder of the freeway and reverse…blaming everyone else for not slowing down to accommodate because they “missed their exit!” – start realizing even if you don’t know you did something wrong, there are others out there who you effect, when you drop a pebble in a lake, there is a ripple effect, and thousands of other stones rippling too honey. Newsflash, you are not the center of the universe. And even if you are the center of YOURS, you effect others. Take off the blinders! And please accept if you don’t travel, volunteer, step outside your comfort zone AND grow older in age and experience which includes acknowledging when you miss an exit that no matter how inconvenient the next exit is to get you back to where you are going – it was your mistake and you need to accept it not force the entire highway to accommodate you…you will continue to experience these hurdles.
I fault the professor much more so than the student. The student is younger, less experienced, and less educated. Therefore, I give them more margin for error. However, the professor was out of line. The professor doesn’t have the authority to kick people out of his class. He may think that he does, and the students may never question that authority, but the bottom line is that if the student were to plop down into a seat and say “I’m not leaving”, there’s really nothing the professor could do other than to continue ranting (which would be unprofessional), cancel the class for everyone (which now punishes all of the other students), or take it out on the student’s grade (which is also unprofessional).
If those emails are accurate, and unaltered, I also find more fault with the professor. The student’s letter was rather polite and professional. The professor’s letter was snarky and unprofessional. The student didn’t let it get personal, but the professor did. Again, given the age, experience, and education-level differences, the professor should have been the more professional of the two.
If I were the student, I’d have taken a seat and called the professor’s bluff, just to make a point. Then, I would have withdrawn from the course to eliminate his ability to get revenge through the grading process.
A professor very much does have the right to eject a student for not complying with rules of the classroom. If he did have to stop class to have it happen or even have to excuse the rest of the class, it only shows how self-important, pompous asses think they should get their way every time. Shocking news is… the world revolves around no single person. As I said, I agree the professors response was abrasive to say the least… but I can understand his sentiment and it does not detract from his message that the student needs to learn some manners.
The professor doesn’t have the “right” to kick the student out of class. The professor only has “informal authority” to kick that student out of class. That authority only goes as far as the students allow. Most students will just adhere to the professor’s demands, but just because most do…that doesn’t mean the professor has that “right”. In that sense, the student also has the “right” to be in the class if they’re officially enrolled in it.
Actually, “kdbroom”, the professor does indeed have the authority to dismiss a student from class. Your logic aligns with the very entitled logic of the student in question.
Right now, the teacher in question is continuing to teach and made the right call.
Actually “James”, the professor doesn’t. The professor doesn’t have any formal authority to kick a student out of a class to which they’re enrolled, especially BEFORE that student has even been made aware of any classroom rules the professor has established. If the student were to formally file a complaint, I guarantee that the burden of proof will be on the faculty member to show a) that the student was aware of the rule (which the story indicates they weren’t), b) that the student was disruptive to other students (and simply “walking in late” is not a reasonable measure of disruption), and c) that the professor didn’t have any other reasonable options to handle the situation.
Your logic aligns with the very entitled logic of the professor in question. Right now, the teacher in question continuing to teach is immaterial. Just like the student should have had…that professor is entitled to some due process.
Keep telling yourself this kdbroom. Honestly, it is no sweat off my back. In the grand scheme of things, I don’t place entitlement either way in this situation. I never would. The point is, that if the student wants to learn from a professor, then they must abide by the rules and reasonable conduct of the classroom.
Walking into a classroom at a very late point in the class is disruptive and would fall under the general policies of the institution that all students are bound to. Furthermore, the student in question did this the (2) other classes. I can’t imagine what the student was thinking.
Think long and hard about who you are defending. I would like to think you have already done this, so I’ll take your lack of understanding in this given situation as being brunt-headed and unreasonable or ungrateful.
I’m defending a human being who was treated like crap. That student deserved better from someone who is supposed to be well educated.
Furthermore, kdbroom, the fact that the professor is still teaching is relevant. Was there recourse on behalf of the institution? No. Why? Because the response was warranted.
Part of teaching is telling students things they don’t want to hear. At certain points, the only way to do this where students will truly listen, is by the approach this professor took.
This student needs to get their shit together and they needed to hear that.
Feel as you may, and try to defend it, but the fact remains that this is how the real world operates.
Bottom line.
In the real world, if you treat people like this, you get payback. Both the professor and the student were out of line. The professor should have been the bigger person and handled this more appropriately, especially considering his age, experience, and education.
Here’s how I would have handled it in my classroom. I would have allowed the student to enter the class. I then would have waited until class was over and pulled the student aside. I would have then addressed the situation face-to-face, rather than being an academic bully, and then hiding behind an email account.
Treat people as you want to be treated. This professor should have remembered the golden rule.
I am an NYU Alum. And I have to tell you I find this teacher to be as disrespectful as the student. Say what you want, but I think the student was doing EXACTLY what a student should at this point in his/her career…EXPLORE OPTIONS. It’s time Professor X get off his/her high horse and accept that they are charging $30K+ to “teach” the youth of America. Shouldn’t they treat that with some more “profession”al courtesy?
Before I would launch into the student’s behavior, I would begin by addressing the professor’s actions. I have taught at a higher education institution for almost eight years and, in that time, I have had to deal with disrespectful students via e-mail. For practically all of these situations, I was totally justified in ripping that student a new one, but I am a professional academic, and an adult, so that guides my actions. Also, I have to remain aware that I can be held accountable for my actions to my supervising chair, who has the authority to reprimand or dismiss me if my actions are inappropriate. Reinforcing classroom policy is more than appropriate, but when the professor decided to launch into a diatribe about “how things work in the real world,” the conversation went from addressing a specific issue to addressing the student in general. That was inappropriate.
That being stated, let’s talk about this student, who has some unrealistic expectations about his rights in another instructor’s classroom. Call/e-mail the professor, meet the professor during office hours, read the syllabus, go to Ratemyprofessor.com…all of these actions are great ways to research a class without setting foot in the classroom. However, occasionally students need to test the actual classroom experience; that is perfectly understandable. In that case, the student should have contacted the professor beforehand and asked permission to observe, then allowed for the professor’s response before showing up. Most professors would actually enjoy having students visit their class; it is a serious ego boost to think that a student considers your class so important that they want to observe. However, it is the right and responsibility of the professor to set the tone of the class. A student does not have the right to supersede that protocol, regardless of how much they would pay for the course.
Very well stated.
how i feel but a lot more eloquent 🙂
I’m dumbfounded at all the comments from people who feel so entitled that they think disrupting a class an hour in is actually ok. “I pay $X so I should be able to do as I please.” Bullshit. For one, many students aren’t paying, it’s the parents or the government. Two, I pay thousands of dollars a year to go to international conferences, so I can learn about the most cutting edge science… dropping in and out of talks is rude. No one says “I’m paying, so I can do what I want.” It’s not a matter of having to follow rules or sucking up to the professor, it’s a matter of not being disruptive to all the other people who are paying to be there. Three, who the hell thinks you can ‘sample’ a class by attending the first 15 minutes? Read the syllabus for crying out loud. Lastly, what did the student expect by sending that e-mail? For the instructor to rethink his policy? The professors response was absolutely perfect. The tone and message were set in such a way to knock the kid down a peg or two, which he/she obviously needed.
The government loaned me this money. I am very aware of the fact that it is ME who will be paying this money back for at least the next 20 years.
What she did was rude, that’s a given. The way the professor handled it was equally childish.
[…] Mean Professor Tells Student To “Get Your Shit Together” […]
The student isn’t the customer nor is the professor a salesman. That analogy is completely wrong. The professor doesn’t work for the student, the professor works for the institution (which serves the community as a whole, not the individual student). A more apt analogy would be employee/employer – with the professor functioning as the employer and the pay being the grade. While I may not approve of the tone, the sentiment behind the professor’s e-mail is exactly what that student needs to hear if they are to have any hope of success in life.
Wholeheartedly agree. Just because you pay for your education doesn’t mean you are entitled to the professor folding on their policies. They are there to teach you the realities of the world so you can go out there and be ready for those moments. I remember a friend’s college daughter missed a deadline to hand in her final paper by 3 minutes and she failed the class. My friend (parent) tried to contact administrators at the school via her contacts to encourage them to accept the paper and not fail her daughter (as the mother was paying for the class and didn’t want to pay the $1500 again)…if it was the real world, where a business asked this young adult to submit a bid from a Request for Proposal in order to get a project for their company – that 3 minutes would definitely matter. There would be no mother calling up to save your job then…or maybe she’d try, which is another example of how this generation of parents has failed our kids. Yes, I worry about the debt these kids have these days – but I worry more about the self entitlement to the point where they can’t SEE it as entitlement at all. I don’t blame them – I blame the mother’s trying to save their kids like my friend above.
Reblogged this on Generation Cake and commented:
I is for Integrity. My colleague sent me this today and I am jealous. A grad student should indeed, get it together. Well played, professor at my alma mader. Well played.
It is just a business class… The student can just buy a book or do some Googling to get the same amount of material. I don’t know what all the fuss is about.
the student was male… Interesting that Upworthy need to make the flaky student female.
The student’s letter was a load of crock and should never have been written. It was adding insult to injury. The professor’s reply was free advice and should be taken as such. Does he have the right to shop around absolutely. Does the professor have the right to refuse him entry for being late, yes. Take it for what it was a life lesson. To all the future leaders of industry remember everyone’s time is important, not just yours. Futures are built and destroyed by being late. If you were seeking to beat out a competitor being late might decide whether you closed the deal or got beaten to the deal.
Situations such as these can be avoided with something as simple as the University giving a scheduled observation opportunity to any student who would like to observe a class before they sign up for it. The professor of the class would then know that there is a student that will be scheduled to show up in their class at a different time then his class begins. The expectation of such a student observation would have prevented this professor from feeling he was being violated in some way. A person does not need to observe a whole class in order to know if they like it or not. I feel this professor was very arrogant and rude but also feel that he should have been aware of the students plan of action by the University sending emails of the intent of such a student to visit his class. This would give the professor a chance to schedule the time they would prefer the student visit the classroom. To tell any person they need to “get your shit together” is blatant disrespect for another human being, just as much as showing up in a class unannounced is. Perhaps this professor should go back and take a few public relations and psychology classes to see how his reaction to this student will effect their future outlook on their success. This is not a student being a whiner and just because they are observing a class does not make them an entitled person. They are trying to make an informed decision by observation. This is clearly a case of failure to communicate on both all parts the University for not having a clear set plan for observations of classes, the professor for not respecting the student and asking them to step outside the class to find out why they were late and the student for not making sure that it would be okay with the professor to show up late by an hour. People lets get real there is no right or wrong here there is however a failure to communicate which you would think college professors would have by now given their educational level of intelligence. This is just a college professor who has let his degree go to his head sad and true.
Wow… “Anonymous”,
So the student bears no responsibility? It is the fault of the University and the professor to adjust everything around this one person’s inability to have some common courtesy?
I agree that sampling a class is a valuable asset, but this one was of the most ridiculous methods of trying to do that I have seen! Please, also keep in mind that the individual is not a child. Has to be mid 20’s assuming they went to college straight out of high school. Stop the coddling! The guy screwed up… the teacher, although unprofessionally, corrected the him… after he emailed the professor.
How would you like it for me to write you a letter the day after you kicked me off your lawn for passing out drunk there saying I felt put upon that you did not let me recover peacefully? You’d be ticked, don’t lie. The guy tried covering for his faux-pas and recoup some of his ego by writing an email about how kicking him out was inappropriate. No amount of money gives an individual a right to be a jerk… regardless of what those that have the money or those that pay money for a service may think. If I were delivery driver, you can’t call me worthless and kick me in the shin when I bring your pizza to your door just because you gave me a $20.
I’m sorry sir that is a ridiculous suggestion and no University with sense would do that. Its a waste of time and that’s what course descriptions and office hours are for. If the student was that passionate about making the right decision he would have been proactive as is necessary for a rising business professional. He could have gone to see or emailing each professor ahead of time before the semester even started to get the information needed. I believe he was making excuses for his poor judgement and wrote the email out of offense and pride.
Here… here, Jazz!
Love this! The professor is completely in the right. The student seems like a prick.
slow clap, Professor with a standing O. This is how education should be. Teaching students what leadership really is all about.
Have to strongly side with the Professor, the student was wrong, then had the nerve to send the e-mail to the professor, instead of learning from the first mistake.
The student is nowhere near ready to have a boss, much less be one.
What’s a “party jerkface?”
At my undergraduate college, we just had some professors that locked the door when class began, and that was that. Either you were on time or you weren’t attending class. It taught students punctuality quite quickly.
Education is focused too much on just in class information and lecture. It’s good to learn skills (it’s sad that people don’t already have these basic skills) that are needed outside of the classroom. I commend the professor
Wow that is funny lol but the professor is right. That kind of disrespect is not tolerated in business or in life for that matter. There is an appropriate way to sample a class and that was not it. They could have sat in different days, stopped by the professors office during office hours to ask questions, or simply read the course description like most educated college students do to make that decision. I have gone to school for business and worked in business and its cut throat in the business world. This professor was helping the student see hes not ready for prime time with that type of behavior and he needed to get that shaking. The method could have definitely been different lol but still true nevertheless. I pray the student got the message
“You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on his laptop.” Perfect 😀
I finished my MBA in 2002. One thing I can tell you is that this “student” isn’t the type of employee I would want working for me. She is rude and insensitive to others and based on her poor judgement could not be expected to be a leader of those below her, which is something any good program should have as a goal for all its graduates.
You wouldn’t want a business grad student who attempts to go outside the system in order to determine the best product value for dollars spent? Or are you not hiring her because she seems to understand how the consumer / service provider relationship should actually work? I suppose then you simply purchase your products from people with the most regimented and traditional systems as opposed to innovators or people actually providing the best product at the best price. I’m no business major, but this seems like basic stuff.
It is a guy not a girl
Yes! Thank you professor! I could kiss that professor on the mouth for that email.
I do not agree with the title of the article…the professor is NOT mean, he is just educating the student, in his own way…sometimes, I guess, people need to use very common words and expressions in order to learn..I think in this case, the professor makes total valid use of the expression. But, that is just my opinion, i give the professor two thumbs up!
Great outcone
I’m sure the professor feels proud of himself for the eloquent soliloquy (he was writing to himself), but the pompous righteousness, so common in the little teachers with the big PhDs, is deleterious to the educational process. Robert Coles uses a number of Robert Kennedy examples in “How to win a moral victory, rather than a pyrrhic one,” in “Lives of Moral Leadership,” p. 18. I wonder if the professor had asked the simple pragmatic question “Why are you late?” would he have let the student stay? Or would he have reared up on his high horse? Personally, I’m not buying his brand.
[…] the risk of sounding like this guy I’ve got to say “No it isn’t!”. The first time I was faced with […]
As an over 50 male with multiple degrees, who has taught both undergraduate and graduate classes, I have to say that the professor is a huge jerk. Had he pulled that crap on me, I would have refused to leave and after his email we would have been having a chat with the department head (if not the dean) as well as those departments of the university concerned with the administration of the various statutorily backed policies.
Do we know the student doesn’t have a medical condition, and either couldn’t make it across campus because of some situation, or maybe they have a gastrointestinal situation that put them in the toilet for an extended period of time? Should we talk about violations of the Americans with Disabilities Act? How about a student with a sick child that needed attention, or just one that’s working 2 jobs to put him or herself through school and was given an ultimatum by the boss to take a shift or be fired? If this is an evening class, presumably 2 hours or more long, why shouldn’t the student be able to take advantage of listening to the lecture that they can attend?
There are numerous reasons for coming in late to class (or leaving early). It’s not up to anyone but the person who’s taking the action to determine whether it is “legitimate” or not, and simply coming into a class late is not especially disruptive unless, as in this case, the professor chooses to make it so. This kind of arrogance is amazing.
There are lots of issues with numerous people, their work ethic, difference in what is “polite”, etc. — this isn’t one of them, though. Dr. Jerk needs to change his attitude and dial his testosterone injections back a bit. Any “teaching” to be contained in his response is lost in the vitriol with which it was delivered.
The problem isn’t so much the policy — although I would pound on the door if I were going to attend a class and found it locked — as it is the attitude of arrogance of the instructor.
It would seem that there is enough sh*t to get together on both sides to keep everyone busy.
Wow… how did you keep a job? Your students must have loved your come and go as you please attitude… or did they mostly fail out?
Yes, there are extenuating circumstances for all situations, and sometimes “sh** happens”, but we must take the consequences of those situations and decisions as this student should have by just leaving when asked. As for the email… the student wrote it to save his own ego, and the professors response was not professional… otherwise, I felt he was on point! He should have to answer to his superiors for not responding professionally…
And if you refused to leave my class I would promptly stop teaching and call campus police and have you removed.
Ironically, i believe if that if the student had any of the said issues and explained, he would have been allowed to stay.
And as normal humans, we can simply discount extremely rare events unless told otherwise. We don’t accept late homework without a valid excuse just because “there may be a possibility that a meteor may have landed on his house”.
It seems like this professor has a stick up his axx and enjoys picking on students, since he emailed it to his entire class. He comes across very arrogant as he lists off all of the business theories he knows
Completely agree!!
Wonderful response. A timely smack right on my forehead! Complacency kills silently. Thanks for sharing.
The teacher actually thinks he’s teaching the student about reality? That’s kind of funny. I’m 42 and very well familiar with the real world, business and seriousness. The teacher works for an institution that pays him a wage. The student is a customer, one who pays a hell of a lot of money, to contribute to that wage. Therefore the school is “the business” that the student pays for services from. If the school (and its employees like the Professor) actually acted like the “real world”, they should be setting up a system that directly caters to the first week “tryouts” that all students go through. Why are classes so long in the first week when the students just want to get a taste of them? Gosh, I don’t know… maybe it’s because schools are some of the last institutions to ever change with user needs? Why are schools not catering to the customer needs? Because they know LITTLE about the real world. They are SCHOOLS. Hey Professor, get off your high horse and realize you do not live in the real world, at all, and have actually taught the student only one thing: That his $50,000 investment goes to diva professors who get offended when students walk in and out of class, something that happens ALL THE TIME in real world business meetings.
What business do you work in where it is ok to show up 40 minutes late to a meeting? I want a job there.
I agree that schools tend to be the last places to change (other than government)… I agree the professors response was unprofessional, but not wrong in its intent. I do not agree that 50k gives a student any right to be discourteous. You seem to think it is the professor he is being discourteous to… what about the 60 or 120 other students that are paying 50k to learn from these professors. Why is their time and resources worth less than the individual that does not know how to go about sampling classes in a proper way that does not disrupt 3 classes in 1 hour!
Do you have a post secondary education yourself? If you do, I’m surprised. You are not paying for a school to coddle you, you are paying to show your employer you have knowledge, discipline, critical thinking skills etc. If it’s only about the money they’d take your $50K and mail you your degree without that pesky nuisance called education.
You are completely wrong.
First, students are not customers. The fact that they pay is an unfortunate artifact of the misguided american public policy, not an indication about the nature of their relationship with their professors. In the rest of the civilized world higher education is either free or near-free.
Students are trainees not customers. By definition therefore they relinquish some of the control over their lives because they are there to learn and they can’t do it on their own. If they can learn on their own terms without obeying the rules of the institution or the professor, they are free to leave and keep their tuition money. Almost all of the information they will learn is freely available on the internet anyways. But they can’t do that because most people cannot learn without an external structure imposed on them, which consists of rules like “Don’t walk in to a lecture an hour late.”
You might have been right if the professor was capricious and his policy was arbitrary. However that is not the case either. In a university lecture the goal of the professor is to keep the attention of the class high so that he can make use of their cognitive resources most effectively for the duration of the lecture. When someone walks in an hour late, that’s at least 10 minutes of attention time lost or underutilized for the entire class. Therefore, the professor has every right to kick the student out and send a message to the entire class to not be dumb like that.
As for the business meeting analogy: In business meetings, it is sometimes OK to be late, but ONLY IF you are an equal party to the meeting. If you are one of the lower ranking people, I wouldn’t recommend walking in an hour late, since that’s the surest way of getting your bum fired.
There’s a difference between user wants and user needs. People may also want to tryout 3 different employers in a week before picking one, but that’s not happening is it? Why in this day and age does everyone have to ‘like’ everything… this self-entitled life perspective is not going to get you very far in the actual working world. Do I find every day and every project and every team I encounter titillating. Hello no! Oh no, poor you, you might have to pick a class based on its description and make it through even if it’s not fun. Some of the most genuine learning experiences come from making it through a situation that wasn’t what you ‘wanted’.
My question is: How can you tell the teaching style of a professor after sitting in a class , on the first day, for 15-20 minutes? The first day is typically an introduction to the curricula, syllabus, and other students. This student had it all wrong.
Honestly, you can probably tell whether a professor is a decent teacher in under five minutes. It’s not that difficult.
AND…Though the professor was grandiose in his response, it was his right to make that rule in his class. Professors are given that right by the universities/colleges.
This professor clearly has too much time on his hands.
Seems like this conflict is to be blamed on the lack of communication between the administrative faculty – who presumably enabled the student to go around sampling classes – and the professors of those classes. Whoever told the student he was allowed to do this should have first gotten permission from the professors. I don’t think the student was in the right to “provide his opinion on the matter.” He could have left that last part out and the email would’ve been perfectly valid. But, the professor’s narcissism and stark sarcasm is uncalled for. “Get your shit together,” isn’t exactly a comment that sets an example of professionalism at a highly regarded institution.
If it would have happened to me, I wouldn’t just leave the class at that time.. I’d try to explain(or to say, start talking) till he either understands, or just becomes fed up of my blabbering and tells me to sit.
I don’t care about wasting time.. He’s the one who started it by stopping me from sitting in the class, and I have a schedule..
Its true that I’d have notified him in advance, but sometimes, we just forget things and when we do remember, its already too late!
And had I been the instructor in the class I would not allow you to sit…and had you I would have called Campus Police to have you removed.
Do that in my class and I will have you forcibly removed by the campus police.
Wow, what an ass. As a professor at a top 5 school, I do not take it personally, like I’m an immature brat, when a student has a conflict. Students have complicated lives and have to make their decisions for themselves about priorities. It isn’t my job publicly chastise them. Personally I find the shopping of classes like this silly, but whatever, the student could have just as easily been helping a friend with a medical emergency.
I hope he get disciplined for this disrespectful behavior.
Why is he disrespectful? Because he “publicly chastised” the student? Let me tell you as a professor from another “top” school. Society works because publicly reinforcing or discouraging behavior works. What the professor did has a much better chance of giving the student a chance to rethink his/her mindless conduct than your considerate sensitivity policy.
And please learn to read before boasting about the rankings of the institution that has the misfortune of employing you. The email the professor responded to makes it clear that the student did not have a medical emergency.
are you trying to funny or are you always a condescending douchebag?
Being retired from a 40 year career in the business world, I can tell you that the prof is right on.
Sounds like an arrogant student + a kind, yet egoistic, professor.
Some details not mentioned. Assumptions made.
Don’t like the part where the student dropped his class without sitting through his lessons. Reason for dropping seems to be crash of personalities instead of quality of lesson.
Don’t like the part where the professor sent out the email to all his students. I suppose those in the class know who’s the late one.
http://www.stern.nyu.edu/faculty/bio/scott-galloway
I say, “RIght on!” to the teacher. Perhaps a bit crude in one line, but getting one’s shit together is an important life lesson — possibly one this fainting lily of a student hadn’t yet learned.
As CEO of my own company, having worked my way up through various business situations, the student who wandered in late and then later sobbed away that he was just “trying out classes” wouldn’t cut it in the real world. And, some of my bosses in the past might not even be as “politic” as this professor was. They’d just fire the self-entitled jerk who wandered in late, disrupted the meeting, or whatever — or, maybe would simply reassign him to a job he could handle, maybe taking out the trash or something.
The student needs to learn: actions have consequences. When you choose an action, you choose the consequences. Life has just given him a test. Will he learn the lesson, or expect to whine away whenever something doesn’t suit his schedule?
Why is this professor described as “Mean?” He or she taught the greatest lesson in that student’s life, a lesson his or her parents miserably failed to teach.
I think this professor needs to get his sh%t together. There are lots of things in life more important that his silly class. His email and total lack of humility and mutual respect shows that “in spades”.
Reblogged this on Hemingway Protégé.
1. the student bothered to write a few paragraphs on this after the fact to send as an email, but couldn’t be troubled to email the three professors about their classes beforehand? If his concern was really understanding more about the classes before taking them (which many students understandably express as well), i find it disappointing that his final strategy was to do this.
2. Replying all and purposefully embarassing and shaming the student to all the other students (because x’ing out his name really preserves his anonymity..) goes directly against anything he said previously about ‘decorum’, ‘manners’ and all the soft-skills that are supposed to be easy. I suppose this isn’t a class taught by example.
2a. i didn’t see anything in the professors reply indicating that he made his policies or anything about his class available online. its 2013, if you are not helping your students by posting resources online, you are actively resisting the change the world is going through.
Both parties show a strong attitude of entitlement.
-The student feels entitled because school feels to him like a business transaction.
-The professor uses a system that ‘works’; why should he change? if you don’t like it, go somewhere else. i doubt this attitude stops here.
-The student is in his own bubble, doesnt matter if he diminishes other peoples focus.
Our dollar buys less and our education costs more than for people who went through the system in the decades before. our job prospects are worse and there are more of us. And this is the younger generations fault? The younger generation is blamed for WANTING it easy. sure. But then the older generation should realize they HAD it easy, and let it slip to what it is. The message? we ALL need to get our sh!t together!!
Some state that the professor could have acted better. I think he was within his rights. Much is expected of graduate students and as one myself, I can honestly say that this is not the way to go about figuring out what classes you want to take. The mature thing would have been to email each professor well in advance and as for more information about each class so the student could make an informed decision. I’ve done it or even looked at past syllabi from a course reserve list my university has. You don’t just walk into a class like that. At the graduate level, the first day of class isn’t a throw away. You jump right in. So the way this student went about doing this was ill-advised.
I can’t believe how many of the comments keep assuming this student is a female. The professor’s email says “You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on his laptop.” So we know the student is a male. I am much more bothered by the sexism of that frequent assumption than by one ignorant teenager’s rude behavior.
A pronoun by any other name, LOL… however, your own observation is highly flawed. The student is no mere teenager. This is Grad school. Meaning if he started college at 19 and did the minimal 4 years to graduate that he is at least 23. More than old enough to grasp simple manners and put them to use. This is not a kid.
The Stern School of Business has an undergraduate program as well, as many business schools do. Unless I missed something in the original emails or you know more about what courses this professor teaches than I do, I think you’re assuming he is in graduate school.
I made my assumptions from the student’s signature as 2010 MBA candidate with a date in feb 2010. So, I stand by my age assumption of 23 or greater.
The professor is absolutely correct. However he should not have used the four letter word. This student is shopping for easy course or grade. I have taught for 40 years and have seen gradual decline of motivation for learning and erosion of civil and responsible conduct.
The professor refers to the anonymous student with a masculine pronoun (“regretting the send button on his laptop”), which tells me this student was male. Yet the author of this article uses a feminine pronoun (“the professor told her to leave…”) when referring to the student. Pay attention to details Doanie.
This could have easily been avoided if the student audited his/her classes. This would have helped him/her decide which classes they liked and moved forward from there. An hour late is unacceptable without notifying the professor of your expected tardiness. There are a ton of resources to help a student decide if they will like the class, they can ask other students, go to ratemyprofessor.com, speak with their advisors or simply speak with professors one on one.
That being said the professor didn’t need to post the email thread to everyone. This seems more like “handing him his ass” than anything else. Perhaps even to teach anyone else who thinks of doing the same a lesson.
Overall they both sound a bit high and mighty.
You don’t like that professor’s attitude? good. let your reaction guide your decisions. You think that student was in the wrong? Ok. Don’t do what he did. I doubt any of you were harmed by this kid or by his professor.
SOMEONE IN THAT CLASS DID SOMETHING MORE CHILDISH THAN EITHER PARTY: THEY POSTED THE WHOLE THING ON DEADSPIN.
Do any of you think that your mistakes deserve to be plastered all over the internet? Even if you do, don’t you realize that this entire thread is useless, serving only to generate more hits so Deadspin can sell advertising space?
Anyone who wants to take this instance as evidence of some fundamental flaw in professors generally or students generally is delusional. All you know about it is hearsay, and everything word you speak of it is gossip.
I’m sorry your lives as students were so emotionally tragic due to classroom interruptions and cumbersome class auditing policies. Surely it must justify your need to make this story so important. Don’t flatter yourselves. This is nothing more than juvenile catharsis for all of you. Get a gym membership, or a dog, or a life.
look at all of you and how much anger you hold toward each other over something so trivial and inconsequential as some anonymous student’s tardiness. Why should your opinion about this matter if you’re only going to shield your identity and bark at other people doing the same? Yeah, I’m aware I didn’t reveal mine either. Does that make you irritated? feel like I’m a hypocrite? Well that was the point. Why shouldn’t you feel that way about all the other anonymous posts?
Here’s a piece of advice for all of you. The world doesn’t give a shit what you think if you wont own it. People of the message board, get your shit together.
+1
Totally agree with the professor. The student seems to be treating classes like a shopping trip.
Thank you Prof!
I don’t think the studen’ts plan was bad, just poorly executed. The Professor nails it by explaining the risk he took – student should have expected this type of thing could have happened and not try to “poke” at the professor in an email after he didn’t win his “bet” (I mean what did you expect would happen??). Professor makes such a good point when comparing the situation to the business world. If you can’t reach out to a TA or Professor to see if your plan is ok, how are you going to navigate the complexities and ambiguities in business? Not to mention not being able to take strategic risks and lose gracefully. Hopefully the student will learn from this and the Professor uses this example in a lecture!!
Is it really that disruptive to enter a lecture late on the first day of class? We’re talking about the first day. The student has every right to get the best possible education he/she can. How else are you going to do that without checking your options? If entering a class in the middle of a lecture is so disruptive that a professor has the need to interrupt his own class and chastise the student for being late, that professor hasn’t mastered the art of teaching in the least. Explain how he deals with students getting up to go to the bathroom or walking in late because of an emergency. Does he stamp his feet and assumes they disrupt his class on purpose just to annoy him? I can understand if it was a reoccurring issue but damn, really uncalled for. I think he needs to get his shit together and learn some decorum as well as the ability to ignore the small things. His kind of attitude is the kind you see from upper level management who are sociopaths. Grow up.
Reblogged this on My Blog and commented:
Professor Galloway, is spot on, here. My favorite part: “Getting a good job, working long hours, keeping your skills relevant, navigating the politics of an organization, finding a live/work balance…these are all really hard, xxxx. In contrast, respecting institutions, having manners, demonstrating a level of humility…these are all (relatively) easy.”
Why so many opinions about something that has already been done?
Why are people writing such long comments?
This professor is AWESOME! Way to teach the hard lessons that no one wants to take responsibility for teaching! I LOVE IT!
Hot damn, what a group of self-righteous assholes on this board. The student IS a customer and they are employing professors to educate them in a way that caters to their education. That is not a ‘sense of entitlement’. Entitlement would be expecting something for nothing. Students pay a massive amount of money for this SERVICE. If you don’t see it that way, you are welcome to your opinion, but you are a product of a school of thought which is aging and will soon be defunct. Students will often be suffering the consequences of promising such a sum through loans for a decade or more which changes their income prospects forever (if you are waging age warfare on this post, you were not saddled with such debt and have no idea what you are talking about). Students interested enough in their education to be damn certain about their class choices ARE the ones who have their shit together. They are not asking anything to be handed to them. They are asking for the legitimate worth of the money they have shelled out. Sure, professors are often leaders in their fields, and deserve to be respected as such, but that does not give them the right to dish out disrespect in return. Students who take their education seriously will also be leaders in their fields eventually, and they deserve commensurate respect (potential that this professor notes!). People on both sides of the aisle ought to understand that this is not a one way street. People who are respectful and patient with one another will both benefit, it is not a zero-sum game. Teach all you want, but one thing is for sure, tossing a student out of your class ensures that student learned nothing from your lecture (which is presumably a failure towards a goal both of you are supposed to share). It’s not like you aren’t being compensated appropriately–MBA Prof at NYU? You’re making six figures to NOT provide education? Because of an extremely minor interruption? God forbid one of your students needs to use the bathroom. Get over yourself.
I don’t know about you guys, but I went to college to get a job, and I used what I learned there to get a job. Simple as that. Fortunately, most of my professors were fantastic, and truly interested in providing me a quality education in the best way that they could. I had professors that gave me their cell numbers, professors whose office hours were more than half of every day, and professors who were willing to listen to my problems and provide life advice (totally above and beyond). They understood occasional tardiness because they understood that life happens outside the classroom, they never questioned it. My professors earned their respect through being good at what they do. Consequently, I am a superlative engineer.
Also, to those comparing this to the ‘real world’ job market, go fuck yourself. This paradigm of ‘respect your elders’ bullshit is just that, bullshit. The ideas of the young are not invalid because you have some sort of life seniority complex. The notion that you should cater to the rigid whims of any employer are sad, capitulations to economic reality–you may have jaded yourselves into submission, but we will continue to dream. Laborers deserve some bargaining chips as well. I will vote with my feet. To buy into the idea that you must bend over backwards and accept whatever employers are offering is frankly, sad, and my heart weeps for you. We will make our own way.
I do not dispute the fact that a student is a form of “consumer” paying for a service. But what gives this consumer the right to disrupt the service being provided by the professor to everyone else paying the same fees for the same service. They showed up on time and were trying to take in the material. They obviously understood they would not be allowed entry if they were late… Why should these consumers have their product devalued over this guy that thinks rules should not apply to him?
The service other students are receiving is not downgraded in the least by someone quietly walking in late. This happens all the time, is a result of reality, and I can’t name a single instance where it detracted from my education. I doubt you or anyone else can either.
First, students are not customers. The fact that they pay is an unfortunate artifact of the misguided american public policy, not an indication about the nature of their relationship with their professors. In the rest of the civilized world higher education is either free or near-free.
Students are trainees not customers. By definition therefore they relinquish some of the control over their lives because they are there to learn and they can’t do it on their own. If they can learn on their own terms without obeying the rules of the institution or the professor, they are free to leave and keep their tuition money. Almost all of the information they will learn is freely available on the internet anyways. But they can’t do that because most people cannot learn without an external structure imposed on them, which consists of rules like “Don’t walk in to a lecture an hour late.”
However, let’s suppose that students are indeed customers as you claim and “Students pay a massive amount of money for this SERVICE.”
What is the SERVICE they are paying for? Learning? If so, the student has been taught the lesson of a lifetime given that he is willing to learn. The SERVICE is not being allowed to do whatever they deem appropriate, disturbing the class and interrupting a lecture in the process.
Whether or not it is an artifact is irrelevant, the cost exists and therefore the relationship is dictated as such. I’ll just ignore the extremely privileged point of view evidenced by ‘civilized world’ comment and assumption that access to the internet can be taken for granted since we happen to be talking within the context of a fairly elite school (it’s more offensive than relevant, I suppose). Certainly for the purposes of this discussion, a lot of the requisite information is available on the internet (much of my specialization was not, unless I wanted to read and compile a much greater amount of literature than is practically feasible, it is much more efficient to study under current researchers in the field, but that’s another story). The service students are paying for is not the information itself; it is the packaging and intelligent selection of information that is necessary to work effectively in a chosen field, presented in a way that recognizes that different people learn differently. Think of professors like tutors. They are being paid to work with a student so that the student actually learns. This is not the same as spoon-feeding information, as that isn’t actually a thing. You can’t have knowledge inserted into your brain effortlessly like a USB drive. The student is still required to work–and to work hard–in order to hone their skills. The professor’s job is to facilitate and direct that effort. That is certainly a service, and quite an important one at that. If the student is not a customer, than why on earth is the teacher being paid? If a student is a trainee in a more traditional apprentice setting, the trainee doesn’t pay, and the master is paid in the labor of the trainee–this is not the case here. It is extremely clear cut. Certainly the rest of the university is a business. It competes for students all year around.
Absolutely. Why people keep saying, this person won’t last long in the real world is irrelevant. So what if they don’t, that is their right as an adult to become an unproductive member of society, it only is going to hurt them if they don’t clue in, and show up at jobs late. But that again is a stupid comparison. I doubt this student thinks showing up late for class on the first day because they are shopping classes, and showing up late to a job they are being paid to do are the same thing. This student’s behaviour is not indicative of a spoiled and entitled generation, but demonstrative of a mature individual that is strategically trying to get the most value out of her money.
I entirely agree, and I find the ‘real world’ comparisons particularly tiresome in this specific instance because most reputable MBA programs require you to have been extremely successful in a ‘real world’ career for at least 2 (and more often 5) years just to be considered for admittance. This student has likely functioned and flourished in the settings condescending commentators find so sagacious to speculate about. That being said, school has nothing to do with the real world in any case. It is the ivory tower, the antithesis of the real world. Only a foolish person would take ‘real world’ advice from a school.
You’re a pussy.
Maybe, if more instructors felt free to reality check students, we’d not be dealing with businesscritters and politicians whose basic attitude toward life is “*I’m here*! Let the bells ring and the banners fly!” Had this jackass done even a moment’s research, he’d’ve known what the class guidelines were. Bravo, Professor Galloway!
Ohmygod! Did you guys know that you can now masturbate by vomiting words onto a message board?! What will they think of next?!
You mean I can spend my whole day arguing about something that doesn’t affect me AND I don’t have to stop eating cheetos in the dark while I hover over my computer AND nobody knows who I am? Jefferson would be proud of our public discourse. *tear
The student’s email was respectful. He could have asked the Professor Galloway ahead of time regarding shopping classes. In my grad program, they realized that the students were paying a lot of money for their classes, so they allowed three days to “shop.” Professors even encouraged it. I was grateful because I avoided classes that were different than the impression they gave in the course list. The $5,000 investment per course was that much more valuable to me.
I bet you didn’t walk in 40-60 minutes after the class started though to do your shopping though. When I was studying, I would try a class out (the entire class period) and the next section go to a competing class and choose from there… The problem wasn’t that the student was trying to figure out what class to take and sampling them… it was the manner in which the process took place causing an interruption of class and breaking classroom etiquette/rules.
Well when I was studying. If you leaked an e-mail scolding some student for lacking humility, respect for institutions, and manners to Deadspin you were a coward and a hypocrite. And when I was a student, I found it far more disruptive for a professor to completely stop a lecture to embarrass someone than I did the shuffling of feet while someone found a place to sit down.
Lets count the class interruptions, shall we? we have one for the student who came in unacceptably late. Then the professor who stopped class to demonstrate his dominance. Then he interrupted his students again to e-mail them about the disturbance like a gossipy teenager – effectively re-using his interruption and the student’s. And by doing the latter, he set-up his students for further interruptions by making it very likely that someone would spread this trivial story on the internet and invite vultures like you and I into something that really never belonged outside the doors of that lecture hall.
Ha. Nice… counting the disruptions. It wasn’t just about a disruption though, from what I am reading (and yes… why I am wasting my own valuable time here I don’t know, but enjoying the debate) it was an obeisance to a classroom law as well that all of the other paying students seemed to have respected. I am not saying that the email the prof sent was the wisest decision, let alone to all was a correct action… he should have stated it in more professional terms and only to the offending student. Obviously the offender just could not grasp why he was asked to leave or why what he had done was not proper.
My use of the disruptions though was to show how the inconsiderate student was costing the other students their rightfully paid for education. I think the spirit of the professors response was dead on, but the letter of it definitely needed some editing.
Well, I respect your candor. But I have to point out that you’re contradicting yourself, if only to understand your point. If the broader issue is the value of the education, why does one disruption or series of disruptions justify the other? The message was “be a professional,” but the spirit of Galloway’s response was caustic, patronizing, and petty. Is that the proper way to deal with classroom interruptions?
Frankly, when I sat through my professional school courses I found this kind of sophomoric behavior unbecoming of professors. And as I became a professional myself, I came to realize how useless that kind of attitude really is in the working world. So if it’s value that we’re concerned with, shouldn’t we hold the professors charged with making sure we get our full value accountable when they demonstrate something so unprofessional? The student’s ignorance about this is debatable and that may lend some degree of forgiveness. The professor’s stupidity in handling this is certain and his authority makes that fact far more unacceptable regardless of what his message was.
Are you saying the professor should not have corrected the students understanding as to why he was told to leave? Should not have asked the student to leave despite the classroom rule? Or that it is the manner in which the professor responded that you take issue with?
If it is the first two, I will continue to argue with you, as I feel the professor was absolutely correct to ask the student to leave, then to respond to the email with an explanation and why it is important the student understand. If it is the last issue, then, I believe you and I are actually on common ground here. As I said, I don’t agree with the way it was written, but the message it was trying to impart (there are rules, they must be followed). Nor with the fact that he sent the response to the entire class.
First, I’m saying that your position on the professor’s enforcement of the rule is unquestionably justified in this particular instance is flawed.
I’d like you to agree that this “first class” falls within a time period commonly understood as an auditing period, and that it is known by faculty and the university at large that students often attend multiple classes. I’d also like you to agree that we don’t know what NYU’s auditing policy is. We don’t know whether or not other professors find it unacceptable to get up and leave in the middle of a lecture during this time and we don’t know where the university stands on it. Suppose you completely disagree with a professor’s point of view – suppose it offends you. Should you stay glued to the seat for fear of being rude?
The exact purpose of this professor’s rule enforcement on the first day is unknown given our body of evidence. We may presume by professor’s language alluding to professionalism, respect for institutions, etc… that this rule is more about order in the classroom and respect for the professor’s authority. What’s also unknown are the other professors policies regarding late attendance to the first class during an auditing period. And a third unknown about this rule is where it comes from: the professor himself or the university.
Given all that we don’t know, I’m left wondering where your conclusion that his enforcement is unquestionably justified comes from. Because it’s his class? Because sites like ratemyprofessor could have queued this kid into the rule? well that is a presumption isn’t it? and one that must overcome the fact that this is the first class which is necessarily part of an auditing period that almost every university you’ll find engages to help students find the right classes.
Second, that the student doesn’t understand why he was told to leave is your twist on the facts. The student literally says that he is bothered by the rule, not that he doesn’t understand it. He voiced his opinion that in this auditing period, he found it bothersome that his late arrival caused him to be publicly embarrassed before a room full of his peers. Moreover, I’m sure you could empathize with that experience on some level. What you’re reading is this kid e-mailing this professor put the professor on notice that there may be some ambiguity in the first class/auditing rules at NYU which caused him to believe his late appearance was acceptable that day rather than some indifference to the professor’s class and its rules.
Third, he didn’t do anything to correct the student’s understanding of the rules. He offers no NYU code of conduct for us to reference, he does not direct the student to take the issue up with the registrar if he doesn’t understand, and ultimately he shows a complete lack of empathy which necessarily undercuts any presumption that he is “correcting” someone’s behavior. Moreover, nothing in the student’s letter or behavior can supersede the presumption that but for this particular auditing period, this student is in all likelihood a diligent and professional person.
So, as to your first two points I believe you are presuming facts about the student which are not in evidence, and I think that your position refuses to give this student’s character the benefit of the doubt.
Combine that with your willingness to accept the third proposition – that this professor’s statements were over-zealous and also rude.
So, we have one person (student) whose rudeness might appear obvious on its face, but really when you don’t know all the rules it is ambiguous. That same person reached out to voice his consternation in a calm, rational manner. Certainly not something a rude person would be expected to do. Then we have another person (professor) whose rudeness is plainly obvious, and who if backed by such well founded rules could simply have pointed to them.
Now, you feel that the professor is justified in calling the student rude, despite all of the ambiguities about the auditing period rules and despite all of the assumptions that he has made about the student’s character, and despite all of dignity and professionalism that he abandoned in his reckless reply.
I can only think that you’ve been interrupted in a similar manner at some point in your life. Maybe you’re also a professor, or maybe you really don’t like people coming in late to lecture. Whatever it is, the fact that this professional stooped to something as base as “get your shit together” tickles you, and blurs your ability to see how little we know about the student and that we should be reluctant to stand behind someone with such zealous invective unbecoming of his title.
What I disagree with is your inability to see that the first two propositions are not sound. But the third is, and that’s enough to say that we shouldn’t be heaping praise on Professor Galloway.
I greatly appreciate your form of discourse. Am loving this conversation.
First, I will say that I am not a professor, but have been a college student and went on to get some post-grad education as well. I am not enamored with the way the professor critiques the student, but do find it warranted. Sorry, but I do.
I base my assumptions on common sense methods for the “shopping” for classes done by myself and many others which gives each professor and class a “fair shake” WITHOUT the cause of any disruption. The first few weeks of a semester at most, if not all colleges, are for dropping and adding classes. The way to do the shopping if a student does not know of the websites to use, or for some reason does not wish to discuss with people that have taken the course previously is to attend a class. The ENTIRE class from start to finish. then attend one of the other 2 classes at the next scheduled session and then the third on the third date of classes. From there, make a decision. There is no walking out of 2 classes mid-lecture and walking into 2 mid-lecture, nor showing up for the last one a full hour into the lecture.
So yes, I make some assumptions, but am also cognizant of the fact that the student was wrong in his actions. The professor was correct to enforce the classroom rules. Not knowing is not a valid excuse, I am sorry. I broke my foot right before a class and missed an exam. I could not make it up as I was not present in class. It was a medical emergency, but no special circumstance was allowed. I was also marked tardy for my next class as I hobbled in late (I took my education very seriously). I had a “valid” excuse for not be present and for being late, but had to bear the consequences of my not being there on time. As must this student. Which I still feel was the Profs intent, though done harshly, and without cause shared with the rest of the class.
Also, as I state in a previous post of mine, I feel the professor was hoping the tone of the letter would serve as a “slap to the head” and wake the student up to the fact that whether he is aware of all of the rules regarding college attendance, he will still be held accountable to them; just as some one will get a ticket for parking in front of a hydrant whether or not they realize it is against the law.
And pardon the typos. Though I ordinarily proofread my work, I neglected to here.
I focus not on the student’s understanding of NYU’s rules or lack thereof, but rather yours. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, you are correct. But the same logic may be applied to the professor who, in an equally probable hypothetical, may be ignoring some NYU policy regarding auditing.
You have told me your approach to auditing, or perhaps that which was acceptable at your university. And anecdotally, I would agree that the professor has the absolute right to throw a kid out of class per his own rules. My point is that the probable inconsistency of each professor’s individual rules and the lack of any justification based in NYU’s rules for your approach over this student’s makes it impossible to affirm one method over another.
I can accept that it is your opinion that this student deserved a “slap on the head” for his lateness, but not for his curiosity and candor in bringing this issue to the professor. Nor do I believe this letter by the professor was slap on the head intended to wake-up this student, because apart from his behavior in a situation which your anecdotes concede is ambiguous, this student has not done anything wrong. His e-mail to the professor comes close to an explanation of his reasoning, but our universal lack of understanding of NYU’s auditing rules means you cannot import any judgment about this student’s character or what he does or doesn’t deserve.
In my opinion, an hour late is too late. But neither your opinion of tardiness nor mine controls here. Likewise, your presumptions about auditing don’t control here either. NYU’s rules do. And without those, you don’t have a broken leg to stand on 🙂 (And I am sorry for your experience. That is discouraging, but good for you for soldiering on. I too suffered through some maladies that though out of my control did not draw the sympathy of my faculty).
The fact remains that whatever corrective intent this professor had becomes eclipsed by his callousness and patronizing tone combined with the fact that his class-wide e-mail opened an embarrassing mistake or misunderstanding on the part of the student to the whole world. Kicking him out was enough. Taking it a step further dirties this professor’s hands and makes it very difficult for me to praise his actions on any level.
Agree to disagree?
Broken down in such a way, I will concede… there is not enough evidence form a fully rounded opinion for this specific situation at this specific college without video evidence and a listing of NYU’s rules and regulations regarding class attendance and time of tardiness.
However, on a broad base, I will still state that in a similar situation, the student is being inconsiderate by wondering in an hour late because they want a sample of the course. I would also say that the professor is proper to respond stating that it was inappropriate to arrive in such a fashion and that it would not carry over well into the wider world of after college life, if the student were to write an email first trying to excuse their behavior. But I stipulate that the return email should show poise and professionalism while still showing the effects such actions can have and NOT share it with the entire class as it is none of their business.
😉
for some reason it showed my response as anonymous… but I assure the stipulating response and rebuttal are mine. LOL
Ah, but there’s the rub. And this IS my last post.
A student coming in late to class, perhaps even very late to class, must happen at every university on a daily basis. Can you honestly say that what rallied you to side with Galloway was merely the fact that he enforced attendance rules? Can you honestly say that what makes that e-mail so worthy of praise by so many people isn’t his caustic tone and his presumption that this kid would act the same way in the professional world?
You sarcastically dismiss my skepticism about this student’s exchange because you think I am too exacting. Well, I believe that accusations about a person’s character like those in Galloway’s letter cannot be based on one instance. Nor can we reasonably accept that MBA students are professionals already or that their behavior when auditing a class warrants some preemptive judgment about how they will behave as professionals. Nor do I believe the inverse to be true: that business professionals who act unethically were jerks when they audited classes. And I think that’s what these people really want to see here: a reason why business professionals have failed them and this economy in the recent past. The fact is, it’s not tardiness. It’s the fact that unlike the legal or medical profession, business people aren’t hauled before an arbiter for their unethical behavior unless it rises to a criminal level.
You may believe that the professor is justified in taking a stand against tardiness (I do too). But clearly that’s not what Galloway’s letter is. It doesn’t take an investigation to see what he is: a crabby old man who took out his frustration at a rash of tardiness on one student. And if he wasn’t, you and I wouldn’t be talking about it. Galloway’s response is disproportionate regardless of how he engaged his auditing, and that’s what people like about it. That’s why I’m disgusted with the publication of this e-mail. It gives people a reason to look down their nose at all students, and it makes this poor kid a scapegoat.
Sounds like a dick professor on a high horse. Kicking a student out of class on the first day won’t teach the student anything about punctuality or being professional in the business world. This e-mail was completely unnecessary. It’s definitely a dick move no doubt about it. What’s more pretentious is that judging from what he wrote, he actually gives 0 fucks about the “anonymous student” and just wrote the e-mail to be a dick.
Yes, Bravo, Professor Galloway!
Reblogged this on Braless Studio and commented:
Whose side are you on? Prof. G or xxx?
No side…Just sending out kudos to Professor Galloway! Wasn’t that obvious by the “Yes, Bravo Professor Galloway” comment?
Who gives a s*!t!
first and foremost to those of you seemingly taking the side of the professor and hating on everyone else…you’re all idiots. both parties are at fault. you don’t know the student’s situation and regardless of being in grad school or not they still pay lots of money. maybe he/she had to sample these different classes because they actually had to make a huge assessment as to which class he/she had to put into the plan of study…because everyone seems to forget grad school isn’t a 4-6 year endeavor. i think she went about it in the wrong way and acted like a child, but a professor should know better, regardless of your desire to see society become more or less politically correct, the professor acted in an unprofessional manner unacceptable in academia, which was stooping down to the theoretical level of the student. what should’ve happened was the student write to the professor apologizing for why she was so late, explain the situation, and either ask if they could sample the class the next time around, or schedule an appointment with the professor to discuss the structure and content of the course.
Spelled “judgment” incorrectly.
Actually, it isn’t. The way Professor Galloway spelled it is simply the less common spelling.
I cannot believe how hard some people are being on the student in question.
While I agree that showing up late is disrespectful and disruptive, the student had a well-intending reason to do it.
In my opinion, the professor’s decision to call the student out, and then email the whole class about it, was way more disruptive than the student coming in late. Moreover, the professor (who is supposed to be professional), lectured about “respect” in a blatantly disrespectful way.
I’m not saying I agree with what this student did. What I’m saying is, I am very grateful not to have had a professor like this, who (like many of the commenters on here) seems to take pleasure in berating someone who is trying to make the most of his education. If I employed this professor, I would considering firing him/her.
It amazes and saddens me that so many people are this hard-hearted and unempathetic.
(Please don’t don’t tell me I “don’t understand the real world.” Just because my view of things is different from yours, that doesn’t make it any less real! Thanks.)
I am a NYU graduate 2012, and I absolutely disagree with the professors response. His professional position is identified as an “educator.” In saying that, one who is in this position needs to practice restraint when responding to a student in a professional context. Yes, he is probably a frustrated professor who was extremely inconvenienced and frustrated by the student’s letter. However, professionally, he needs to uphold the NYU name and brand. This is not doing so. If he needed to rant and rave about any of the newly admitted students to his class, his forum should have been different than one he chose. At my current job, if I was running a program and had individuals underneath me who I felt was incompetent; I would not send a massive emotionally driven email to rectify the issue. As this man is a “business” professor, he would know that in any company, he would be reprimanded for a lack of self control in handling any adverse situations. Bottom line. This man needs a therapists or a support group for burnt out professors. Unfortunately, this professor was in no way more in the right than the hour late student. I am assuming the professor feels that a teacher influences by position and not by what one emulates to others by one’s own actions.
Professors are not gods. Students don’t pay for the privilege of being in their presence. Teaching is a job and higher education is very much a business. While students should be respectful and not show up late, they deserve to be treated as human beings themselves. What’s more, it was not the student’s idea to come up with “shopping” for classes. The fact that you shop for a class makes you a consumer.
No one here is saying that professors are Gods. However, teaching is just not simply a job. Teaching is a career, and many hours of hard work. It is not simply a 9-5 gig that allows you go home and relax for the evening. I work full-time in academia in conjunction with teaching as an adjunct professor. Combined, I work 60-70 hours a week and make only 34K.
If you’re not a teacher than you don’t understand. This notion of the business aspect of colleges and universities has absolutely nothing to do with teachers and teaching.
In today’s world the role of the educator is not only to teach the content of their class, but instill adult responsibilities in their students.
‘Shop classes’ ….isn’t that what the course description is for? Besides, what would 20 minutes in each class on the FIRST NIGHT really tell you about that class as a whole. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to say find students who had taken those classes and ask about them? …or email each professor and say you are unsure which class you are interested in an request a syllabus/course schedulee (I’m sure they have one from a prior semester if they haven’t yet updated the current one). And what school allows you to register for 3 classes at the same time?
For those of you observing that a lot of people (including the poster) are referring to the student as female, when based on the emails it was a male… I am also bother by this. I am even more bothered by the fact that almost everyone is automatically referring to the professor as a male, when no clues about gender have been given. (I’m not counting the blog posters use of “his” because the error about the student’s gender makes me doubt the poster’s credibility.) Just food for thought.
better than referring to the prof as “it”… LOL… more PC … uggh.
@fontlow If this was the only reason, there would be an equal number of people referring to the professor as a woman. I think it is important to notice the assumptions our society so easily slips into, including assumptions about gender.
I can see your point, I suppose as a wider issue, but think it is going way off topic from the original discussion, is all. Heck, in my college career a full 1/3 of my professors were women… however, it was a private college and run by nuns, so… Gender is just one of those things I personally do not take into consideration in debates. people are people and we have been accustomed through the ages to immediately make an anonymous figure into a male one. I am just as guilty as the next on this.
To be honest, it seems like both the professor and the student were on a bit of an ego-trip. However, I do have to say that as a graduate of NYU and now an employee with a full-time job, the professor is correct (however lacking in tact his response may have been) – if you can’t get the easy stuff like this right while you’re in school, you’ve got no chance at the hard stuff when you get out.
right on point, Corey!
But that point could have been conveyed any number of other ways. And isn’t it obvious that you shouldn’t come in an hour late to anything? I’m sure glad NYU can lend its prestige to the public shaming of a student, even if his name was withheld. Surely an MBA holder would recognize how poor that decision was. Oh and fontlow! I hear the Galloway cheerleaders are recruiting.
As I have said previously, the email should have gone to the student only, and been more professional in tone, but the point the professor was emphasizing was absolutely correct. I do not know the prof… and certainly have no interest in going to Mew York any time soon. But you are absolutely right that I applaud and cheer for some one willing to say to another person, “You were being rude. It is unacceptable. Grow up.” I think more people need to hear that message.
Half the time, I know I could benefit from it 😉
I can not believe I misspelled New York… my apologies.
Doesn’t that presume we know all about NYU attendance policies? I agree that an hour is too darn late. I don’t agree that this student’s letter was because he didn’t understand why someone might think it rude to be so late. You don’t know if all professors would feel so offended, and you don’t know that opening a door and finding a seat deprives someone of education. More importantly, you’re not thinking about the quagmire created by universities who let their professors enforce various and inconsistent attendance policies combined with a very expensive degree program which may make students feel a tremendous amount of pressure to choose the right classes or lose out on their rightfully paid for education. You’re confusing rudeness with fear and misunderstanding on the part of the student. And the fact that you wont give him the benefit of the doubt seems callous.
Overall, I agree with the professor, however, I think his use of the word “shXX.” and his conversation about “urinating” were over the line and brought a little “baseness” to his otherwise superior handling of this student’s rudeness. If the student wanted to “audit” several classes, he should have checked with each professor first. He made a gross assumption in thinking that the professors would tolerate that type of interruption and “jury” (where the student gets to make a snap judgement based on a few minutes in the beginning, middle, or end of a class). If the student wanted to know which class to take, he could have:
1. read the course description.
2. found other students who had taken the class and were willing to talk about it with him,
3. asked for a syllabus,
4. talked to the TA,
5. Googled the professor to see if there were any online ratings or additional information about him, such as awards he had received,
6. sat in the hallway until after class, and then asked one of the students (who was leaving) how they liked the class,
7. asked an advisor which course would be more suitable for advancing his own career.
8. set up office hours with each professor to “interview” them,
9. chosen a class based on which location was most convenient, and dropped the course and/or added another one if he didn’t like his choice. or
10. tossed a coin.
Any argument that the student put forth to the contrary (defending his need to interrupt the class to “sample” it) is nonsense…and just means that he put his need to decide on a class above the needs of all of the people who actually wanted to learn from the class.
Overall, the professor’s response demonstrated quick wit, intelligence, and a sense of humor while providing an “oh, so needed” slap on the wrist!
Congratulations to the professor who handled beautifully the unfortunate task of stepping in for the parents of a student who should have known better long before entering this fine school. Rude is rude, and is best so stated clearly and with whatever examples necessary to illustrate the point.
The prof. made it really easy for this to end up online by sending it to his entire class. Why was that part necessary? he won. To those of you who relish this kind of unnecessary shaming of a student by a purported educator:
Do you really think hiding behind some vague idea of “classroom etiquite” makes your stilted comments any more sophisticated than a Maury audience shouting obscenities at the stage?
Typical Gen Y’er who feels they are entitled to behave in any manner they wish, and then is shocked when the world does not treat them with open arms and kid gloves, because they believe they are so “unique and special”, as their parents have led them to believe their whole lives.
The professor is dead-on here. If that student tried to behave that way in a professional environment, he would simply be fired.
That’s awesome!
I wish more teachers and professors were like Professor Galloway. The entire society we live in is riddled with kids, teens, and young adults who feel that everyone else’s job is to help them, baby them, and make everything ok when they screw up. Rules don’t exist, etiquette doesn’t exist, deadlines aren’t real, respecting your elders has flown out the window, and common sense is a thing of the past.
That’s not what the real world is like at all. I’m glad he was man enough to say “No! It’s NOT ok to do what you did” and didn’t beat around the bush about it. Maybe if that person’s mom or dad had done the same thing while he/she was growing up, there would be enough of a “fear of screwing up” instilled in the person to make sure they knew the class’s tardy policy beforehand.
That man controls your grade, which controls whether you get a diploma, which determines whether you move up in your career. Give him some friggin’ respect and don’t saunter-in like some entitled princess! Who told you it was ok to do whatever you want to do?!? He was right. Get your s*!t together!
1. Genius.
2. Obnoxious.
3. It’s *whom the admissions department has deemed…, Prof. Galloway, not “who”. Get your sh*t together.
Perfect, I tell this to my coddled and ill-prepared college students on occasion, when need be. Most have no coping skills, and no clue what awaits them in the business world. College professors are the last to get them ready because “the wimpy village” has failed them. The whining has to stop.
Haha lets see this guy talk like that in person and not thru a screen, gets his fucking ass kicked. Hell be the one having to get his shit together, probably by an ER surgeon.
I don’t know if this was said because I did not read every comment but I would like to point out that i feel badly for the NYU students hoping to get into the classes this student was “shopping around” with. I am only an undergrad right now so I do not know anything about MBA programs but if I knew someone decided to shop around their first day as I was stressing day-after-day to see if I could be included into the class, I would be very upset. Please leave comments on how you feel about my opinion
Now this is a fair point. Having someone shop classes, thus taking up a spot from someone that knows is pretty crappy. I suppose it is unclear in this situation if that is the case, and if you really know you want a class, chances are you’ve done the research and enrolled in time, or will have the option to sit in front of the admin screen hitting refresh every 20 minutes in case someone dropped. But you’re right, forget the “disruption”, that is the real selfish act here. My University didn’t allow online registration if classes overlapped, that had to be done by an administrator, who likely would have denied enrolment in this case, which leads me to believe the classes weren’t full. And seeing how it is a grad class, that makes sense.
I agree with the fact that there were other ways to go about this from the student’s point of view. He should have just admitted he was wrong and left it at that, not send an extremely provocative e-mail to a teacher he obviously had already ticked off.
What I can’t seem to understand is why the teacher is trying to teach him a lesson about respect, but then completely disregard that lesson himself. I doubt anyone here is under the impression that this professor handled this situation optimally?
I hate it when people show up late to classes/lectures. But I always get more annoyed by the teacher/prof. sending them away then I get at the fact that the door opens and closes and someone sits down. I acknowledge that sometimes (not this time, but the prof. didn’t know that) students may have a reason for being late. I’m sure that if the scenario ever occurred that the professor was late, he would not take kindly to being sent away.
It’s funny because earlier today I was just thinking about this rude teacher I had. I made a comment in class, and he laughed at me and basically led the rest of the class to laugh at me. It was on topic, and he made me feel really dumb so I emailed him the next day and just let him know how i felt.
am i “entitled” for doing that? i don’t think so. and i think this student did the same thing.
it’s not uncommon on the first day of class to survey different classes because everybody knows the first day in class is not really all that critical. most of the students in the first day are going to drop the class anyway.
it just sounds like the professor was excessively rude to him when he dismissed the student, and his e-mail response was even more rude. condescending, vulgar, making all these assumptions about what this student knows and doesn’t know. it’s very defensive… and to ME, it seems like the PROFESSOR feels “entitled”. “I’m a Professor I can talk to these students whatever way I want”. It doesn’t seem fair… and i can’t believe so many people are siding with the rude douche-y professor.
In my opinion what is missing here is R E S P E C T… If the student had respected the professor for his position they would not have planned to be disruptive to their time. The professor had planned a lecture and deserves to have the attention and not be interrupted by adult learners. Also the other students deserves to have a classroom environment that is not interrupted by child like behavior.
Then perhaps the instructor could have taken this student to the side an asked what was the problem. Then after listening to their story perhaps still should say : Get your S _ _ _ together. Seems this is what the student really needed to do.
I have been in many many classes as a student and as a instructor. I would never dream of trying to choose a class in this manner.
Anyway. This is my opinion. When we respect others for their position we will conduct ourselves in a more professional manner.
I’ve gone to two graduate schools for two different degrees. At both schools, there is a handbook that all grad students are given. In that handbook, it clearly states that attendance to the first class is mandatory. The entire class, that is, not just the parts that the students feel like coming in for. Could you imagine if every student behaved in this manner? The first class would be nothing but the professor twiddling his or her thumbs, because people would be in and out the whole time. There would be no point in the students “shopping” the classes, because there would be no point in the professor bothering to teach anything. This is common sense. How about if people behaved this way with jobs? “Well, I don’t know if I’m going to like working here or not, so, even though I’m scheduled to be there at 9, I’m going to check out this other place until 10. Without bothering to let anyone know, btw.” That shit doesn’t fly in the real world, and in grad school should be no different.
Before classes begin, there is orientation, at which point the students can ask questions. There is email, office hours, rate my professor, the syllabi, etc. That is how you find out if you want to take a class, not bouncing around from room to room as if everyone is merely there to wait on your approval.
Er, correct me if I’m wrong, but surely if you’re going to refuse a kid entry to your class for being an hour late in front of all the other students, and then sending out to all the other students the kid’s email response in which the kid admitted to being the one who was refused entry for being an hour late, what would be the point in replacing the kid’s name with “xxxx”? Everyone saw the kid who wrote the email being refused entry. Hopefully this isn’t a detective course 😉
One question, if you show up an hour late your first day on the job,will you still have a job? If you are paying for your education wouldn’t you be more considerate of your learning experience? Why does the cost of tuition permit unmanageable behavior? I don’t get the responses on here.
The professor was right. Paying a lot of money does not excuse the student. There are many scenarios when, in paying for a service, you are required to accept certain rules…for instance, when you buy an airline ticket, you not only need to show up on time for the flight but you must abide by FAA regulations and not sneak a knife on board. You also can’t get off the flight halfway through and “sample” another airline. I’m sure that there were many ways for the student to determine which class would be right for him/her, but ignoring a professor’s stated late-policy is not the way to do it. When the student found out that he/she had violated the late policy, he/she should have been properly apologetic, instead of passive-aggressively blaming the professor. Yes, some schools and classes may have a “sample” policy, but this class apparently did not and the student should abide by that.
To be fair, the student doesn’t sound like a bad person, just someone who made a mistake. The unfortunate part is that, instead of just accepting the (relatively minor) mistake and moving on, the student seems to believe that he/she is entitled to an apology for a minor moment of embarrassment. In this respect, the professor was perfectly correct in telling the student to get his/her “shit” together, although maybe he could have used a different choice of words. If the student believes that every time he/she feels bad whining and complaining and expecting an apology will get results, he/she is in for some rough times ahead.
By the way, many of these comments I’ve read are intelligent and thoughtful, but some are not. “Keira Knightley” is clearly a moron. Whoever you are, you are an idiot who can’t write and probably can’t think. Even worse is “zzzzz”…the implication that showing up late, ignoring the rules, and complaining about every slight is what leads to success embodies every negative stereotype about the current generation (a stereotype that is not always fair. I’m talking to you, Dondura.) Zzzz, I’m so glad that I don’t work with or for you, and if you believe “thinking outside the box” means showing up late and acting entitled…well I bet the people around you don’t really respect you as much as you think. Watch your back.
That is such a terrible comparison. Of course you’re allowed to show up late to your plane, but by doing so you have thrown away your money because the plane won’t wait for you. It’s not like you’re not allowed on because you’re being disruptive. Just like a lecture won’t wait for you either, it’s her money she’s throwing away. Only in this case she’s actually trying to get the best value for her money and using, possibly the one day out of the year something like this is generally tolerated, or at least should be. If students decide a week in they want to enrol, well they’re adults, let them catch up. If you are going to make a comparison about the act of consumerism, then at least compare the behaviours in a similar vein.
Everyone needs to stop equating walking in late with stuff like “defecating on heads”. Just because she has paid tuition, can she do whatever she wants? No, but coming late to class on the first day, well I have to say that is within the realm of what a student who has paid tuition has a right to do. In fact, and as many have pointed out, coming late to class really only hurts the student. University is different from high school not because students are expected to act like adults, but because they are paying for the product and should therefore be treated as adults. As long as this girl isn’t being super disruptive coming in, and in my experience people coming in late wasn’t very disruptive, why shouldn’t she be allowed to enter into class whenever. You can’t compare the University class room to a job because people aren’t paying you to be in University. Nor can you say well the Professor have to be on time. That’s because it’s their job to be on time. If students don’t come to class on time, they are the ones pissing their money away. And if in fact they are being disruptive to others in class, well again, you’re adults here. Why not confront the person and tell them you don’t appreciate their disruptive behaviour? Everyone here is chastising this female for not acting like an adult, but in the same breath telling her she needs to adhere to the rules of a child.
What kills me about this whole thing is that this is a business degree. The professor, if anything, is teaching the student that customer service is irrelevant, paying for a product does not grant you any sort of entitlement to that product, nor should you be able to shop around for the best possible product. The profs email is so hypocritical for so many reasons, not the least of which using profanity against a student, in an email sent to the entire class. Talk about unprofessional. Challenging the student to be more professional while responding like this is such a dick move. I get people are upset with how entitled this student is, and I agree her obvious lack of consideration for others is apparent, but for her to be mad at the reprimand on a product she paid for is acceptable. That would be like the dry cleaners telling you it’ll be ready on Monday, then yelling at you for coming to pick it up on Tuesday.
exactly
The Prof is completely in the right here. It’s a grad class: no need to “shop” to see what class you “like.” Catalogues and course descriptions are available for the taking, and a “together” student, as one might assume a grad student in an MBA program should be, could easily ask the department to see a syllabus from the last time the course was taken, if the syllabus isn’t already available online (which it may be, in many cases).
Secondly, in my decade in higher education administration, I’ve seen many, many instances of students trying the “I’ve paid for my education” line. No. What your tuition dollars pay for is the opportunity to sit in a classroom and work your a$$ off to get a grade. You aren’t buying an A, a B, or even a C. You’re buying another person’s time and institutional resources to help you be a more successful professional.
Finally, in the world of higher education, a syllabus is a contract. If a student is in violation of the rules of the syllabus, it’s the student’s responsibility. On the flip side, if a faculty member violates some term of their syllabus, administrators typically take the student’s side. Just because the student wasn’t driven or prepared enough for his future in the program to research his course selections prior to the first day of class doesn’t mean that three faculty members should have to put up with disruptive behavior. It means that the student needs to figure out what happens in the real world, do his work before disrupting three important meetings, and get his **** together.
I completely support Professor Galloway! The classroom is to be the last place students are not in charge – especially one who is this rude and clueless!
Having read most of the responses, I’m a 50 year old college student – undergrad. I’m paying to learn. It is the responsibility of my professors to teach and advise me. It is my responsibility to attend the classes, complete the assignments on time, and be respectful of my fellow students.
The correct way to “shop” courses or professors is to talk with fellow students. What is the class like? What is the professor like? The major department has 3 professors – I knew quite a bit about each one before I ever walked into their class, I also knew what each class would entail before I walked in. I don’t shop classes.
What makes what this student did so wrong – is not that she did it – but that she was rude to not 1 not 2 but 3 classes of students. Add the fact that she is an MBA candidate and that she emailed the professor to defend her actions makes her wrong.
What the professor did that was so wrong. That he emailed that to the student doesn’t bother me. What he did so wrong was send it to his other students. That was unprofessional of him.
I love that this professor took the time to explain the real world to this student…. seriously, show up on time, pay attention and do the work that’s expected of you. Professors are not your parents. Grow up, act like an adult and make a decision about your classes before they start. I am on the professors side on this. It’s common sense to me.
A lot of replies to this blog have written “She shouldn’t”, “She was rude” etc etc presuming that a late, immature, disrespectful student must be a female.
This actually says a lot about the respondent’s world-view.
Especially when we consider that:-
1) In traditional English when a gender is unknown the use of the masculine has been the rule.
2) The Professor writes “You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on HIS laptop.”
There is actually a gender discrepancy as the description of the event right at the top names the student as female.
Good point Will. The blogger misdirected people it wasn’t presumption. You’ve restored my faith in humanity.
Ha! well a few other people have pointed that out, but I hope I’m not the one to restore your faith. I have taken a lot of feminism and gender studies and was pleased to see this issue being brought up in this thread. I noticed the gender switching as well and thought it was very interesting to read both these parts as different genders, then think about what that says about the outcomes. It’s difficult to see the anonymous student as male, after reading female right out of the gate. Only till you get half way through the professor’s rant do you stop and wonder why you were reading it as female in the first place. I myself had to go back and double check this was not some kind of gender biased that was causing me to read the professor as male and the student as female. The more interesting point is I’m not sure the gender of the professor is ever given, yet everyone seems to be reading as male, save a few that have pointed this out. I think if you really take the time to study this, the gender is encoded in the language of both parties. That is to say, our collective idea of gender is coded in words like shopping. It’s a fascinating platform for multiple arguments, and in itself represents several higher education disciplines and areas of study. In the end I think both parties a guilty of several faults, but ultimately the professionalism and experience of the professor should have won out, which is why they should take ore blame for causing such a bad situation.
This student is acting like the spoiled brat I’m sure her parents raised her to be. You need to learn early, which obviously she didn’t, that you don’t get to have everything your way. The challenge in life is meeting obstacles head on. She just wants life to be easy and then get mad when someone gives her a taste of reality. No one is kissing your azz anymore….you’re just like everyone else. If you don’t like it, you can start your own business and then everyone can follow your rules. Grow a spine….these are called life lessons. Kudos to you Mr. Professor for telling it like it is.
It was a male student BTW.
“You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on HIS laptop.”
[…] Therefore, when this letter from an NYU professor to a student who decided to literally “shop” his class showed up online, many of us, who have experienced this sort of treatment, cheered. What is almost as heartening as the professor’s response to the student is the support other students have shown for the professor’s argument. You can read those replies here. […]
Both the student and professor lacked professionalism while dealing with this situation. Stopping the lecture to kick the student out is far more disruptive than than the student walking in and sitting down. Flag the student down after class if possible and deal with the issue then.
First-principles time. A service industry is one in which money is exchanged for a service–that is, for something that is done for the buyer: a car is washed or repaired, a haircut is given, a carpet is shampooed. The customer does not do anything except, perhaps, sit still or open a door or drop off the car.
Education, however, is not a product or a service that can be passively received by a customer. It is an active process that occurs inside the nervous system of the student, and an educatOR is someone who somehow facilitates that process. The environment in which the educator and student operate–the school, or that log with Mark Hopkins on one end of it–is not the same kind of environment as a store or a car-wash or garage or barbershop. If it’s like anything in the commercial world, it’s like the gym, where the “customer’s” body is meant to be changed, thanks to the intervention or guidance of a trainer or coach, with the aid of various bits of equipment. The outcome of a training regimen is a product only in a metaphorical (or perhaps etymological) sense–it is not an item, nor is it a passively-received service. It is a physical condition, the result of a process, of activities engaged in by the trainee– and in some cases the trainee also gains enough understanding to conduct further conditioning himself. How’s that for a metaphor?
So what kind of entity is a university? It’s not a store. It’s not a garage. It’s not a service provider. It is an institution in which “education” is certified to have occurred. Maintaining the institution requires physical, financial, and social resources, so money changes hands. (As noted upthread, tuition does not cover the entire cost of operation–but that’s a side issue.) But the instructor is not the student’s employee–the student is a student, a trainee. And the instructor is neither a servant nor a boss–he’s a teacher. And that role includes a degree of authority–of the right to control the setting and conditions that lead to change inside the student’s head. Sentimentality and the application of inappropriate metaphors to the educational world have led to all manner of folly and mismanagement, including the toxic notion that an education is no different from a haircut or a can of peaches and that a teacher is no different from a barber or shop clerk.
Think of the Scarecrow and what he gets instead of a brain.
BTW, “the customer is always right” is a retail-realm survival protocol, not a statement of metaphysical truth. And would one say “the trainee is always right”?
First of all, it was a crap metaphor, in fact it wasn’t a metaphor at all. Not a bad simile though, just not a metaphor.
Second, though you make a valid point on the service nature of education, you do not follow your comparison through to the questioned behaviour. If a physical trainer is teaching a class that you have paid for, does that trainer have the right to eject you from the class if you were late, or did you waste your money by not taking full advantage of the scheduled time?
You are correct in that Education, especially University works differently then other services, but wrong in thinking a person that paid for the education, or movie, or anything else with a schedule has the right to be refused service, instead of receiving less value for actively showing up late. The student rightfully understood that by showing up late she would not receive the full value of the class, but instead only receive a SAMPLE (caps for emphasis not yelling or anything) of what would be offered. It is a very common assumption any schedule based service is on the consumer to adhere to the schedule. Moreover, some will have time constraint policies that lead to refusal of service, such as theatre doors closed and such. The problem here is that the professor, and employee of the university institution, instituted his own policy, which was not necessarily mandated by the institution he is employed by. Thus much like (see how I’m using a comparison with the word ‘like’ or ‘as’) tax dollars pay for Policemen and women, when they institute their own policies, that is unacceptable. There is a bit of a grey area when it comes to this kind of thing in University, however the fact that the professor give zero leeway with his own policy on the very first day, a day with its own set of social codes and mores, is what makes this professor stand out as such an arrogant asshole, and why I think at least he is in the wrong.
I return to the matter of naming. Education is not a service industry insofar as “service” indicates something that can be passively accepted by the customer or client. If education (like physical training) is a process that requires active participation by the receiver, then even a coach or trainer who is hired to guide that process is not a simple service provider in the sense that, say, a barber or masseuse or plumber (chosen for their non-trivial skill sets) can be. The student is not a passive receiver of “education” but an active participant in the process. And an educational institution is not a simple marketplace for the transfer of goods or the passive reception of services. It is a venue in which the student (whether he pays or not) submits to a discipline in order to bring about a change in himself, under the guidance and authority of those who understand how those changes can be made to happen.
Now, it’s possible to hire and fire personal trainers or golf coaches or music tutors, but you’re not going to get buff or improve your golf game or play the cello simply by paying for a “service.” You put yourself in their hands, take their advice, follow their instruction, and do the work. In the private economy, you’re free to hire and fire at will, to look for the most comfortable fit, to take as long as you like. But if you want to play the cello, you’re going to wind up taking some version of the usual path. Or you can swallow your ego, acknowledge that the discipline might have been designed by people who have some idea of what they’re doing (or at the very least are reliable drones following a well-trod path) and do the necessary. The crucial difference between the open market and the university is that the latter is not, in fact, a market, and you don’t get to browse the stalls and fill your bag with whatever produce takes your fancy. Of course, there are pressures in the culture at large and in education itself to treat all educational institutions as though they were flea markets, but calling a dog a cat won’t make it purr.
I did not address the matter of Prof. Galloway’s response, but after a half-century in higher education–as student, teacher, and faculty spouse–I agree with Galloway that behavior such as the student’s late entry is genuinely annoying and disruptive, and (from what my wife and her colleagues report) more common than it was 25 years ago, when I was last in the classroom. The excuse-making is also familiar, particularly the cluelessness about the rudeness of the original behavior and the “I just wanted to be open” faux politeness. I’m not sure how I would have responded, but I can guarantee that the smarmy concern-trollishness of the e-mail would have raised my blood pressure.
It might do well to also consider the other students (or trainees) in the situation. The tardy student, ejected from class, never to return, ceases to have any importance to the class except as an example. It’s a bit like stories of film directors hiring an extra just to fire the extra on the first day, in order to put the “fear of God” into everyone else, keeping them on their toes. If the professor lets someone’s tardiness slide on the first day, how will the rest of the semester go?
It may seem cynical, but part of the educational process is learning how to get away with your brand of BS. If you must lie, learn to do it properly. “I have an important job interview that may last into your class time, but I’m very eager to attend your course. Please allow me to possibly enter the room late.” This student is in business school. Business people–the successful ones–learn how to do this stuff.
As for “the customer is always right,” give me a break. This is a customer service strategy that no business truly believes in! Sadly, it has led to people believing that because they contributed some cash amount to something, they own it. “Hey…I pay taxes…why can’t I walk onto a military base and take a B-52 for a spin!?!”
I understand the comments on this post regarding the frustration of students paying huge tuition bills to earn degrees to get jobs that might not exist. It’s frustrating to pay $50,000.00 for a year of schooling, only to get a job that starts at $35,000.00 per year. But much like my reply to the above comment is way off topic, so is this argument. The professor offers an opportunity to learn, and will not only grade the learning that occurs, but provide a valuable resource for recommendations, job tips, etc. This is a basic “respect” issue that should go without saying. Which leads me back to the entitlement/customer is always right issue. It’s fine to feel entitled. It’s fine to think you’re right. But you’re a complete fool if you go through life thinking that strangers give a rat’s @ss about your sense of entitlement or your firm belief that you’re right. Smile, apologize, and kowtow to authority, and save your ranting and lame excuses for your friends and family, who might actually care.
I often like these sort of rebukes, but after reading the whole thing, I found myself siding with the student.
I wish he hadn’t blocked out her name, because I’d like to contact her with the following counter-advice:
College is a commercial marketplace, so you had the right idea by shopping around. In fact, you probably have your shit together more than most of your fellow students do.
Next time you shop around, listen from outside the classroom instead of going in. It’s a little bit more polite to do it that way.
When you walked in late in order to sample this professor’s class, it undoubtedly reminded him of two uncomfortable truths:
1) His class is more-or-less a commercial product that can be sampled.
2) The hour of his class wasn’t the most valuable thing in the world and it probably wouldn’t be a tragedy if a student missed it.
So keep doing what you’re doing because you have the right idea, and don’t take his words personally. The life of a professor is really weird, and that’s not your problem.
There are plenty of ways in which to shop classes. Registration for classes takes place months in advance; that is primarily the best time to shop classes. Ways to do that effectively: talk to current and recent students about the classes you are interested in; ask about the professors’ lecture styles, typical workload, assignments, grading scales; review evaluations on file for the class you are interested in and for the professors teaching those classes; discuss the options with the academic advisor (my advisors always knew about the course offerings and teaching styles and would offer advice about coordination of classes so that hefty assignments wouldn’t be due on the same day, etc.); see if old syllabi for the courses are filed and review; see if there are any taped lectures or clips available for viewing; email the professors of the classes to request further information about their classes, curriculum, expectations, and meet with them if possible. In the event that none of the above, which can all be done in advance of the first day of classes, proves sufficient, try emailing the professor and expressing interest in the class and inquire about auditing a class to see if it will be the right fit.
What not to do: what this student did. Seriously? What is showing up 20 minutes late going to tell you about the class and whether or not it is a good fit? What is showing up an hour late going to show you? You’ve missed the introduction to the course and the outlines of the course and expectations. How does that help? The entire excuse proffered by the student in apologia reeks of laziness and entitlement and paints a picture of someone who wanted to see which class would have the fewest assignments or requirements – I can’t think what else would be intended by attending a third of the class beyond picking up a syllabus to view (which was probably available before then with a little research anyway).
The smack down the Professor gave was edgy but true. Not sure if coming in 1 hour late to listen to a lecture would give you the sampling needed to make a decision on whether you fancy the class or not. A more sensible type of investigation may have been more prudent.
The student had a great plan, sample a class rather than waste the semester in a class that isn’t the right fit. It was the execution. Do what you want, but don’t expect everyone else to be ok with your “plan”. Perhaps interviewing other students that have taken the class, read reviews, and most importantly let the Professors know what your “plan” is. Then maybe you would have gotten what you wanted and be excused form the what should have been obvious tardy rule.
I can’t imagine one thing that it is ok to be 1 hour late for except maybe your death. Maybe.
This is a great spanking for the student because in the future they might make better decisions in real life situations that would call for thinking a plan through and what the real consequences are.
As far as sharing the email correspondence with the rest of the students, I think the Professor did what he does. Taught a valuable lesson to his students.
He is snarky. I like it.
[…] https://doanie.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/mean-professor-tells-student/ […]
Students are customers but they are also submitting themselves to the governance of their chosen institution. When those that willingly submit to authority complain about the use and stringency of authority, we see the degradation of academic and social conventions. Look to the dumbing down of America. Grading sales are changing to benefit the student not the society in which the student will be entering. For shame, on students demanding that institutions cater to their whims and their fickle wants.
Professor is an idiot. NYU is one of the most expensive instiutions in the world, let alone the US. There is nothing wrong with making sure you make the right decision in regard to which classes you take. Ultimately, I think this worked out for both of them. The teacher gets to infect one less mine with his bullshit, and the student gets to take a class with someone who realizes the importance of what he/she does for a living.
Really “Anonymous”? You don’t even have the courage to use your name and that tells me a lot.
You are correct in the respect that a student has the ability to shop around for classes. They should do this if they are serious about their education. However, the manner in which this particular student approached the situation was entire disrespectful.
You obviously have never taught. Teaching is incredibly challenging, time consuming and energy intensive. I believe that all educators realize what they are doing for a living. Furthermore, they don’t see all that money everyone is ranting and raving about, so let’s take that out of the equation right now. All that expensive tuition is going to the admin., buildings and maintenance. Most teaches are middle class individuals. Most administrators make significantly more than their teacher counterparts.
Get your information straight.
You have it entirely wrong. The professor should not have to deal with the student’s bullshit. The student is clearly in the wrong.
As someone who went to NYU for undergrad, grad school and then actually ended up with an adjunct teaching gig at NYU… I can definitely tell you that none of us are in this for the money. It is extremely difficult to get a tenured position at NYU, let alone pick up more than 1 or 2 classes a semester if you are new to the faculty. Professor Galloway is clearly more of a seasoned professional than I am (He joined the NYU faculty in 2002), but the point I am making is that he had to put in the work and take all the crap the bureaucracy threw at him to get to where he is now.
THANK YOU, JAMES, for hopefully knocking some sense into this person.
PS- Class registration happens months before the semester even begins. NYU professors are generally very accommodating and open to meeting current and prospective students. I have met with several professors prior to enrolling in a class and was able to determine whether it was a good fit for my educational needs. Why this student waited until the first day of the new semester to try and figure things out is completely baffling…
The professor did her a service. Shopping classes means you don’t have plan and came into the program unprepared. As an MBA student at a top tiered business school, you have an abundance of resources to determine a quality of class offerings. You should have started networking with 2nd and 3rd years already. At the very least you can find the professor’s office during walk-in hours, or schedule an appointment. Professors are usually excessively accessible to MBA students. You can probably mine course evaluation scantron data.
Registration for classes usually happens 1-3 months from the first day of class. In a business setting, if you take that long to make that kind of decision, you’re not getting it.
While the professor has his point I’m going to go with the student on this one. I understand what she was trying to do in “sampling classes” but I do think her sending her snotty email, after finding out all she needed to know about that professor, inexplicably rude.
Reblogged this on don't bite the apple…work is not a fairy tale! and commented:
Sometimes in HR, we want to have this same conversation with our employees. Bravo Professor! Unfortunately, you’ll probably get written up by HR.
My stage acting prof docked ME marks because my partner in a scene did not show for rehearsal! His reasoning? “This is a course in professional acting. In the profession, you will always be judged by results, not excuses. Do a better job of casting your partners.” I discovered he was the most feared — and respected — prof at the University of Alberta: Dr. James McTeague helped me get my shit together. Captain my captain.
Your professor was an asshole.
I guess the student should’ve sampled that class first, not last… tough luck!
But seriously, being late (especially on the first day) can happen. The student was unaware of the rules. Yes, he should definitely know better than to walk in and out of classes, but I think a warning would suffice in this case.
Also, the email from the student was not needed. Suck it up and let it go! You clearly don’t like the prof, so why stir shit up? However, even though I think the Prof had a good response, he went overboard. It was not necessary. And to those who are siding completely with the Professor on this one and dissing the entire generation… well, I can’t wait for YOUR generation to retire! You sound like a bunch of Cartman’s: “RESPECT MY AUTORITAH!” That’s not how you teach respect… I’d send a nice little reply to this Prof… some of you might disagree, but I definitely think he crossed the line here…
Being an hour late is simply unacceptable in any situation. Had it been an a true accident or emergency situation, the student would have apologized. As it was, the student clarified that they had no excuse for being an HOUR late to class, and further defended their actions atrociously by laying out a ridiculous excuse. Sampling classes is all well and good – and there are plenty of appropriate ways to do so? How does missing huge portions of each class tell you anything about whether or not this is a good class for you to take (particularly attending the end of the class, as this student intended)?
A warning WAS given, in the form of the emailed response by the professor. Entirely appropriate response to the weakest defense offered for rudeness and singularly unintelligent strategy to course work I think I’ve heard in years of working in higher education.
Absolutely right!!!! Way to go Prof. Galloway! I do not know you, but you are dead on sir!
It’s pretty simple. The customer is always right. Student pays, professor should take it in the ass.
If the customer, in this case, is right, then why isn’t he teaching the class? We in the academic world do not function by idiotic corporate truisms. So, with all do respect, it is not our job, nor our obligation, to “take it in the ass.”
The student as a customer philosophy is pretty flawed. If it worked the way you are implying (the customer is always right and has total freedom to do whatever they please, as they are the one paying), then they could assign their own work, their own grades and academic institutions would not be able to set policies or prevent plagiarism or intellectual theft; after all, if the student/customer doesn’t want to turn in their own work (or any work!) they are right!
And we could just go right on and get rid of FERPA too, in cases where a parent is paying for their child’s education, since they are the customer. Oh wait . . . huh. Yeah, we run into a real problem there, don’t we? Additionally, the student could only have paid a small portion of the professor’s salary (assuming the professor’s salary is paid out of tuition funds at all), and this student in particular paid none of the professor’s salary, as he/she didn’t actually enroll in the course. And therefore, the student is not even a paying customer, but only a potential customer.
as others are saying, the student – teacher relationship is very different in structure from a business transaction. The student is not a customer. The similarity in payment to the institution does not overcome the centuries old traditional uniquenesses of that social structure.
Further….. an MBA student is paying $50 clams herself? What high paying job does she already have that lets her take that much time off to get an MBA?
I’ll say this: When I was in school I had NO idea what the real world was actually like, until I got out there.. BOY is it different! The student here will do well to let her ontology be stripped away and to let experience and those with it inform her strategies for living.
Typical Boomer Prof thinking his class is the most important thing in the world. Classic ego maniac
Typical millennial, thinking you are the most important thing in the world. Classic narcissist. (PS – I’m 30 years old, not 75).
ehm.. typical human being with self respect thinking manners, competency, awareness of the real world and having a clue are significant in today’s world. Classic “Welcome to the brick wall of reality”
The professor is my hero now !
we are such fucking babies. i can’t believe anyone would get all bent out of shape for speaking like adults in situations like this actually speak.
“It ain’t your momma’s classroom anymore” and that is a good thing. I would sign up for Professor Galloway’s class in a heart beat. Nothing, and I do mean nothing is more needed in this society than honest mentoring from those who have “been there and done that.” The student is now at a critical crossroads and will be driven by ego or by grateful penance and take the right direction. Hats off to the Professor.
Reading these comments it seems half of you don’t even go to college or university and are making these judgments. First of all, money can buy anything. I was reading people giving examples of money, well sorry to break it to you, but if you have enough money you are truly entitled to do whatever the hell you want in this world. Sorry if you think that is immoral or wrong, but stop living in ignorance and see the world for what it really is. Look at the elite class in any country. Second, back to my point about not most of you having no idea what you’re talking about, my question is, have you ever been to college or university? Do you know how much debt they put us in? Do you know how much sacrifices we have to make in our lives to pay. And this is education, this is something that is a RIGHT in some European countries. Also, on a quick note to all the people who said we are just paying for resources and the College spends way more then what we pay them to educate us…. have you been hitting your head against the wall? It DOES NOT take universities above 50 grand to teach us for ONE year, universities are dirty institutions that give you nothing more then a piece of paper for your 4+ years and hundred thousand dollars. How can Americans even argue it is not corrupt? When education is considered a RIGHT but then post-secondary education is only their for people who can afford it…. you know who can afford it? Probably sell then 20% of the States. Furthermore, Profs get funded and paid with YOUR money, so so for any prof to be unnecessarily rude is out of the question, especially because YOU are paying them. In this case, it definitely seems like this Prof.is self righteous and entitled and probably gets off to kicking his/her students out of class when they arrive late. This student probably paid AS MUCH as everyone else, was confused about their schedule and was trying to do exactly what the prof. said “figure their sh*t out”. Like I said before, it is apparent that most of you are talking completely out of your asses, because if you weren’t you would know that MANY MANY students have trouble with schedules during the first couple weeks and as they are spending about 10-20 grand per class, it is not bogus to “check” out what classes they like the best. All of you are talking about the “real” world, well then look at it this way. In the “real” world this student paid their money like EVERYONE else, did not disturb anyone for more then 1 second, and yet is being penalized for just seeing what class was best for her. Imagine if you just got nationally embarrassed after you paid 50 thousand dollars to this institution. I understand a prof’s job is research, but part of the deal is also that they have to TEACH students. Part of that description of being a teacher is being understanding, empathetic and not a complete d*ck wipe. And CORRECTION profs are NOT like this, or you would be seeing way more posts like this. All the profs I deal with are understanding and Professional like they should be. If I were this student I would for sure contact the front office of the College on this matter and seriously ask them if I pay more then what most Americans make in a year, just to be treated like this?
Kam, nobody’s forcing you to go to our corrupt institutions. Money might buy you a lot, but it can’t force me to pass on my knowledge to you, you stupid, spoiled moron. If you disagree, show up to my class, act how you see fit, and see what happens.
So either sit down, bring your books, and shut up while we talk, or take your chances without our “piece of paper.” As for your $50,000, well, guess what, sweetie, I don’t get paid per unit, so you can shove it up your ass. I also don’t work for you, so again, if you don’t like that, take your chances with your diploma, and see how much money and power you can accrue in a world that expects you to show up on time, sit down, shut up, and do your job.
Don’t worry, you’ll understand someday this when you grow up.
I understand the point that College is supposed to prepare us for future life. But since when was it okay for a person in authority to publicly humiliate someone just because they believe they are self entitled? It’s just like if a cop busts you for drugs, you comply with them and then they still proceed to beat you unnecessarily on the ground. And to the person who doesn’t “get paid by units”, I wonder how your students think of you. Since when did self entitlement also allow you to stop trying to EARN peoples respect, including your students? How about if no one starting paying for school, how much would you make then of your precious “state” funding? Also to the person whos name is “seriously kid”, if you really are a prof I would LOVE for you too say that to your students and see how they react. It is apparent to me that your own self-awesomeness (that no one else sees except you) get in the way for you to think rationally and earn respect from other people. I’m sorry to break it to you, but if there were no students your precious institution would not exist and you would not get paid. Furthermore, I am certain it is against College privacy policies that the Prof can NOT just publicly forward an email and humiliate a student like that. Furthermore, I am positive it is accepted by the college, not to mention common that in the first week students “shop” around classes to see what interests them. Think about it this way, would you buy a car if the person refused to let you test drive it? We’re talking about around the same costs here. Furthermore, no matter HOW you look at it, you are EMPLOYED by the students. The students pay the College, yes for the extra-curricular and maintenace of the facility, but it would be an absolute bogus lie to claim that the college does not make profit off of us. And part of the profit they make off us, goes to paying your checks. So while we’re paying 50 grand, and do something that was not even considered “wrong” until this prof stepped in, you have the right to tell us to leave and then make 100 grand a year off it? Also, stop comparing this to a job. You just compare whatever fits with a job, that’s just bias. By those terms you would have to compare everything like a job, so why don’t we all do everything exactly on time in our lives and not be late for anything at all, including eating meals, watching tv, taking showers, etc. Doesn’t make sense does it? Think about it this way, if you PAID for a movie, got help up and were an hour late, of course you would disturb everyone walking in, but would have give the right for the employees to kick you out of the theater? Of course not. Not to mention, the prof kicking the student out, ironically, causes more of a disturbance then actually continuing on the class and confronting the student after. My final point is, just because you are elder and more educated does not make you god. Education does not equal greatness. Get that through your head for all you self-righteous fucks. Great, you wrote 20 essays and read 1000 books, a knife will still make you bleed like everyone else. You are no more important then the janitors that clean your classroom at night. My final point is, the prof could have easily responded with something considerate and some nice advice. Instead, he finds a way to get himself off, writes a 500 word response and just to “prove” his worth sends it to the rest of the class ( who I can assure you did not give a fuck ). That is all, so before you tell me I’m wrong just because you THINK your opinion is more justified because you might be older, take it this way, respect, compassion and empathy are NOT skills that can be learned through education. Maybe both of you spent too much time in the classroom and not enough on the streets. I’d love to see you discuss this with someone with the same tone you did with me not over the keyboard, you fucking pussies.
Actually… this student didn’t pay. As noted, they were “sampling” the class and had not yet enrolled. Secondly, I would love to know which university you are going to that charges $10 000 – $20 000 per class, although based on semantical tragedy above, I would hesitate to believe you are a post-secondary student.
Education costs money. Period. That $50 000 you claim to be paying goes not just towards Professors’ salaries, but also to the costs of maintaining a university from professors to support and maintenance staff, research and extra curricular programs as well as many other areas necessary to keep a large institution functioning. This student (and many others of my generation to be honest) needs to realize that nobody gives a crap about his or her opinion on the matter and sending the Professor an email, just to “make them aware” was stupid. The Professor called him/her out on it as would probably have happened in a business setting as well. You can bet this person will find a different method to gather their information next time, that’s for sure.
Professor is 100% correct and if the student thinks hard about this. He/she will print the professors reply out and frame it. The real world is hard not your friend… this lesson is a valuable and pertinent one.
I’m 30 years old and a professional. If this happened to me in college, I would have been so embarrassed and would have gone to the professor to apologize for my rudeness. Or I would have made arrangement beforehand and contacted the professor to explain. Never would I dream of placing the blame on someone else for a mistake I made! What has happened to personal responsibility and accountability for your actions?? It’s everyone else’s fault nowadays. I see it with the junior staffers we have coming in and it is just plain absurd.
I completely agree. As a teacher, I’ve noticed that we are becoming more like Costumer Service Specialist than Educators. A Low grade means you can exchange it/ upgrade it. We wonder why our schools are slipping? Sadly, I am not optimistic about the future of education. In NY, the Gov. want more standardized tests to hold teachers accountable but their is no accountability for the students and their parents. The end result, kids shop for their classes and interrupt everyone’s learning. No surprise.
dd
While the professor’s response was definitely unconventional, I think he drove home a very important point about navigating real world responsibilities vs. getting through the “easy stuff.” I went to NYU for both undergrad and grad school and can honestly say that there were several occasions when I was conflicted about which classes to take. However, instead of shopping around, I reached out to each professor BEFORE the semester began and discussed with them which class might best fit my needs. Especially as a Sternie, a “future business leader of America,” this student should have realized the importance of networking/ not burning your bridges and also the importance of being proactive. I have seen some people post about the students’ entitlement to do what he/ she likes because he/ she is paying $50,000 tuition. I read comments like this and roll my eyes– What about every other student in lecture who is also paying $50,000 tuition, and then has to have their learning time interrupted by someone who is not considerate enough to demonstrate basic manners?
If the student was uncertain if the class was appropriate for his career goals then he should have prepared a list of questions about the course and then reached out to the professor to schedule a time to discuss before the first week of classes. I personally did this was while I was paying my way through fashion school and never had to drop out of a class. I guarantee any professor will be more than happy to help a student seeking advisement about one of their courses.
It should always be the responsibility and authority of the professor to set the standards of the class and not the student. That is why they are the professor and not the student. The few moments the student spent in his class might have been the best class the student ever attends.
It mentions a woman came to class late and the professor won’t let HER in..then the professor writes to the student “you are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on HIS laptop”. Discrepancy with the gender. The story is probably BS.
Nowhere is there a discrepancy with gender.
I also see a discrepancy with the gender – on the part on Doanie. Nowhere does the professor refer to the gender of the student. Referring to the ‘anonymous student’ as a male is normal in todays male dominated society. It is equivalent to when one says, “That kid needs to get HIS life in order”. However, Doanie, in the introduction refers specifically to the student as a female. To make the assumption that the student was female even more insulting (in my opinion), the stereotypical image of the female ‘shopping’ is thrown in.
LOVE this prof! This guy is a boss, not making stuff up but saying that he needs to hear. That kid should really take this to heart and not be butt hurt about it. Its business school, and he gave him some valuable advice.
Damn straight. Nice reality check!
Having a person walk in late isn’t distracting, and if it is, it’s distracting for about 1 second, and then no one cares. I think people writing extremely long comments on this are forgetting that. I agree that the student should’ve told the professors beforehand so they aren’t surprised, but I don’t believe the teacher had the right to attack him/her through email. As a graduate teacher, he’s probably had years teaching the dumbest and the brightest, and having one person walk in late ONCE shouldn’t set him off. Especially when they apologize and give a full explanation afterwards.
As someone who works in a business office at a large institute of higher education, I find it absolutely hilarious that people continue to refer to the students paying the professor’s salary. I have no idea how NYU/Stern break down their funding sources and salary bases (85% of our faculty salary are paid via state funds, not tuition and the numbers shift in other units where salary may be funded from research or grants, but tuition monies are frequently so regulated that we use them only for classroom expenditures and program/administrative support), but I can guarantee that that student’s $50-60K doesn’t pay for much of that professor’s salary. Assuming the professor makes $150k (which is on the high side), and teaches 3 classes per semester, with low enrollment (we’ll say 5 students at the graduate level, on the low side, and assume the professor is only teaching low enrollment graduate courses for the sake of this argument), that is 15 students per semester, or 30 in a standard academic year. That means at most, this student paid $5,000 of the professor’s salary. And in reality, the numbers are much, much smaller than that even if the professor’s salary is funded solely through student-paid tuition (which is likely not the case). So, that argument is really in no way persuasive, even if one ignores that presumptions inherently implied in statements like “Students are customers” and “students pay their salary.”
But really, why let facts get in the way of self-entitled whining and grand-standing?
What State will continue to fund a Professor’s salary when there are no students enrolled in his class?
It isn’t about the AMOUNT of money, it’s about the proper relationship. Students are Consumers purchasing an Education. Where that tuition money goes and the percentages are immaterial.
No, this is not to imply that the “Customer gets to demand anything” as some knee-jerk reactions have been. But it does suggest a modicum of respect from the EMPLOYEE who is there to deliver the “product.”
Can an educator establish some rules for his/her domain? Sure, but only to the point when those rules interfere with the goals of the Consumers (students) who are PAYING a great deal of money for an education.
If the class was ABOUT “Showing up on Time 101,” then the Professor would have a case. But it wasn’t.
Mean? I would say he was nice enough to teach that student something they need to understand. I would also say the student was mean by interrupting the learning of others for their own personal benefit, which is selfish.
This was NOT a business meeting, a wedding, or a date…..this was a fucking class..first day of class. Tuition does entitle you to attend the classes you paid for. What kind of paycheck would the professor be getting without these students? Also, people often forget that a professor kicking someone out of class causes MORE distractions than letting them stay.
Interesting how we all thought it was a female student. All comments use “she,” and I assumed it was a woman thought the letter. But the professor refers to the student as he. I wonder why we all see this as typically female behavior.
How is this “mean”? The professor did the student a favor by being honest with her. She needs to learn life lessons now in business school rather than later in the real world.
I agree full-heartedly with the teacher. It doesn’t matter if you do or do not know the policies – walking in LATE into any class is disrespectful to the teacher trying to explain their knowledge and disrupting classmates in their learning. University is preparing you for the real world and in the real world – if you’re not 15mins early; you’re 15mins late. Life is hard and this student has to realize it.
In complete agreement with the professor.
Galloway was always arrogant and an example of how overconfidence can became an obstacle to being a good person. I believe he should treat people better. Once he said to the class that the only person who could arrive late at class was an ex-jetfighter that was there because that guy fighted for the USArmy, as if killing people from a plane was being heroic. The “ex warrior” was happy to hear that, and most of the class too. Not me.
The student was rude, she could have handled it better. Come into class another day of the week, ask the professor beforehand. Probably could have prevented this with better planing but nonetheless she failed to do so.
However, the professor also wasn’t much better. Publicly forwarding the message to all the other students in the class? Telling the student to get their shit together? Humiliating in order to get your point across? I’m pretty sure a few kind words could have gotten his point across, what the professor did was unnecessary.
And for those who keep blaming the new generation for the lack of respect, really?
Every generation has its ups and downs, society changes, pace of life changes, culture changes. Saying the new generation has no respect is just an unjustified assumption. Complaining about it isn’t going to make it better, why not learn to accept and adapt? I assure you being arrogant really won’t improve anything, take the high road of being an elder and accept the new generation for who they are.
I actually know Prof. Galloway and he’s a dick. He’s an angry 40 something who cannot get laid without his black American Express card and he takes his anger out on the students. The man has no interest in teaching and I suspect he does teach because it helps him with his consultant gigs…
Apparently this professor relishes in being a prick. I went back and forth a bit on this since being late is obviously not polite behavior, but I agree with the student that it was the first day of class and they deserved some slack. The professor basically told said the student should have consulted with the TA to find out that in fact, the professor is really a prick. Maybe the professor is worried that if more students sampled the available options, he’d have a very small class! Why send out the e-mail other than to let everyone know what a jack@$$ you are? Way to take care of the NYU brand, Professor Brand Strategy. And the “Risk Analysis” thing had me laughing. The risk involved was not the feelings of the professor. The risk was in choosing which class was right for the student! The student, when confronted with a choice of attending a class they did experience vs. (popular?) Prof. Galloway’s class with no experience, chose one of the experienced classes. The student could have chosen Prof. Galloway’s class and come back next week. In my opinion this student was able to make a more informed decision than others who chose one class and are stuck with it for good or bad.
In 20 years when NYU is asking for donations, this episode could likely lead the student to not donate.
I have to say, I am really confused as to why this professor is being worshiped by the web. As someone else may have already pointed out, if HE sent it to everyone in the class after sending it to the student, that’s pretty uh… sad, really. Others believe that the professor may have sent it to a TA who then forwarded it to the class. Either way, I don’t even think it deserved even that level of attention.
Secondly, just, why? A student was blowing off a little steam and a “popular” professor, who I really would assume would have better things to do, launches back a 425 word reply. For what? The dude obviously thinks he’s SUPER effective because he even assumes halfway through the email that the student already “regrets” sending the initial email because some random professor is giving him a talkin’ to via email.
Thirdly, the whole catchphrase “Get your shit together” is completely meaningless because we know nothing about the student. This whole fiasco entails an inordinate amount of filling in. Our minds are filling in qualities about the student AND the professor based on very little information. Our minds immediately fill in that the student is necessarily a disrespectful, self absorbed, amateurish entity based solely on our own preconceived notions of people who show up “late”, and really that’s about it. The student wrote two paragraphs and now you have thousands of people on the internet assuming they know with PRECISION the character of this student. The professor is guilty of the same thing even though he ADMITS he knows NOTHING about the student. The student could be ANYBODY.
From what I gather, the attention this situation is receiving is a manifestation of repressed self-righteousness. People are turning this faceless student into any and every perceived inconsiderate individual they have ever had to deal with in a setting reminiscent of this one. The professor’s assumption on the character of the student allows the reader to fill in the qualities of the student based on their own personal experiences. This faceless student is being blamed for the sins of countless others simply because some of some professor’s conviction based on circumstantial evidence alone.
Alright. I can’t wait for all the self righteous people to cry at me.
I don’t know if I am too conservative on this type of issue, but I don’t even understand why and how this becomes a debating issue. Every points that the professor mentioned are perfectly make sense in terms of professionalism, and even general manner. I just think what that student did including not recognizing what he/she even was wrong is very shameful as a candidate of professional field where many more responsibilities abd courtesies are required.
I have to side with the professor. My question in reading this is why would you sample 3 classes in the same time slot that are required possibly for your program? In that regard, this student may have to face this professor again in a class that is required. If more of them handled students in this manner and we stopped babying them, then it might sink in. This goes not only for college, but also for high school (the tardies and disruptions are unreal!)
The student should of sent an email to the professor to discuss it prior.
You wouldn’t show up an hour late to an job interview.
I have a amazing career, traveled the world, and I always showed up late to every job I have worked for (and one I was late to work 1 to 2 hours every day for many years). It is more because I am not a morning person, and work better in the evening hours, but most career paths are not evening hour oriented. Although, I am early to my own work right now due to my work’s proximity to my home. I have been late for many meetings, late for practically every class I took for both my undergraduate and graduate school (aced my classes) and not many people seemed to directly say to me that it mattered. An occasional professor seemed to care, but after a while, I managed to win them over. It sometimes seems to me that those that care about being on time seems to come more from a regional mentality. I have ditched days of work, and not called in, and no punishment (which I know is unusual). I can agree with the concept of being on time, especially after getting married. Not being on time in some situations is disrespectful to the other person and may be an issue in time sensitive events. In other situations it shouldn’t matter, like college/graduate classes which we are paying for. This may be my skewed perspective based on what seems like an unusual life scenarios, but I essentially was “trained” into this belief based on my experiences. Thinking about it, for me, I could never actually “learned” well in a class, and I retain items better by reading textbooks and tried things out. Thinking about it more, I actually never saw much of a point in school, as I knew many super successful people with minimal education. I also know many people with extensive educations that have limited their career path to working menial jobs. School for me was a standard for my family and all our relatives, as we were “required” to have a minimal of two degrees to fit in. Trying to train yourself out of decades of experience is a long process.
Except, “shopping” different classes during an add-drop period is a totally accepted norm at many university environments… Its a perfectly normal and reasonable way to see what two co-scheduled classes are like in a real-world environment. That guy is just an ego-inflated a-hole. He could probably learn a few lessons himself about not being a total condescending jerk to people he doesn’t even know. Given the snooty tone of his email, he sounds like a totally credible expert in “respecting institutions, having manners, demonstrating a level of humility”.
I side with the professor. Learning not to get on “the bosses’s” bad side is something that every potential employee needs to learn. That professor could one day provide a valuable reference, info on a job opening, etc. Teaching at Stern, chances are that he’s known and respected in the business community.
As a former high school teacher, it never ceased to amaze me when students would show up late, not have their homework, and generally fart around in class, then ask me for college application letters of recommendation in the spring. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?! You treat me with complete disrespect and expect me to do you a favor by lying about what a wonderful student you are!?!?
The professor is 100% right–education is necessary for success, but without basic social skills (i.e., manners), you’ll have trouble just getting your foot in the door. What the student should have done was send an actual apology, rather than an explanation, such as, “I’m terribly sorry that I offended you by entering your class late. It was caused by my shortsighted thinking. Should I enroll in your class in the future, rest assured that I learned my lesson and will not be late again.” The student’s option to write a justification rather than an apology bodes ill for his/her future career.
SEEMS LIKE WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF RISK ANALYSIS,THIS STUDENT TOOK A RISK THAT ALLOWED HE/SHE TO ASSESS WHAT A GIGANTIC STICK THIS PROF. HAS UP HIS ANUS.WELL DONE LAD YOU WILL HAVE A GREAT FUTURE IN THIS WORLD OF CHAOS AND CHANGE.
so if you have 3 interviews and they all happened to be at the same time. are you gonna go around sampling all and showing up on the 3rd interview an hour late? how do you think that would work out?
The student made a series of social mistakes, and the professor responded with a heavy dose of public humiliation (it will take no time at all for other students to identify the offender). In my view, cheering on the professor shows a really poor sense for both proportionality and professional ethics.
So, what if all of the hundred or so students taking the class decided to do the same thing? Every two minutes, someone would be leaving and someone would be entering, on average, for the entire three hours. How would that work out?
Clearly, it wouldn’t — but, apparently, this one student felt he/she was more important than the others.
uh seriously guys…
here look at this first:
http://www.social-consciousness.com/2013/03/hackschooling-makes-me-happy-13yo-logan-laplante.html
Yes you can reprimand harshly like parents do. or you can encourage and inspire like leaders do. i personally prefer the latter. the more negativity you contribute, the more negative the environment, and i’m sure we all understand to some extent that the environment shapes the person. Yes these may be professors experts in their fields, don’t gotta be an asshole! And yes the world may not give a flying fck about you, so what YOU have to give a flying fck about yourself. Yes this is the reality, but think to yourself. What was a better motivator for you. Death? or Life?
What I mean is, what was it that actually help you succeed in life, moved on, be a better person? Being push around by fear, anger, death, things you HAVE to do or you’ll die, parents yelling at you, society bulling you? or Being happy and inspired by your own interests, curiosity, life, freedom, just… being.
I’m going to place my bet on the kid that got yelled at. This kid’s going to grow up realizing how un-natural the learning environment has become. A systematic drowning experience dominated by inflexible thinking and inflexible interpersonal social skills. This kid will grow up to challenge this adversity and change the world.
Now for the professor. If this is how he ‘teaches’ then I give him a failing grade and I’d NEVER spend a moment in one of his classes. From a psychological perspective, there’s some very deep emotional trauma stuck in this professor’s anus and I’d fire him if i had the authority.
~common sense… human sense.
hahaha some of these comments are hilarious and a bit “sad”. Here are the facts people so listen please I’ll walk you through it….1 )The student is paying for his/her education, so to make it simple for you to understand…you pay for a service, a teacher to teach you so that you can learn. I will pay you X amount of dollars to teach me about “something” YOU DON’T HAVE A PRIVILEDGE TO TAKE THE CLASS BECAUSE YOU PAYED FOR IT. ITS A BUSINESS NOT A PRIVILEGE, IF I PAY FOR SOMETHING AND YOU TELL ME TO GET OUT AND DON’T PROVIDE THAT SERVICE THEN YOU ARE IN THE WRONG. To help this teacher out…next time, don’t even acknowledge the student who enters late, if it continues confront them, THE TEACHER IS WORKING FOR YOU, NOT TO BE YOUR SLAVE AND DO WHAT YOU WANT. He has a job to do, you paid for him to do that JOB, all he has to do is teach, shut-up and teach, do the lectures, give the tests, give the grades, it’s his job to teach his “subject-matter” Both of them are partially wrong, the student doesn’t need to write a dumb e-mail (Here’s a free life lesson- never put anything negative on paper/e-mail/voice-mail/Facebook/twitter/ this website.. that will trace back to you) The teacher needs to understand he teachers business and is not a guidance counselor or life teacher. It’s nice that he tried to help the student by giving his opinion but it’s not what he is being paid to do. Those of you that side with the teacher are wrong, I’m sorry I know it hurts. You can make it political and say it’s entitlement but that doesn’t make any sense in this situation so maybe you should go back to school again. Education is a business. I pay, you teach. It’s simple. You can give X amount of scenarios, but they are all irrelevant so don’t. I pay, you teach. Simple, straight forward. Boom roasted, You’re welcome.
Jesus you’re entirely incorrect. Stop wasting space on this blog. No sum of money buys respect
Astonishingly disrespectful email – A professor at NYU doesn’t become a professor without considerable hard work and accomplishment. Students gain access to these people via their tuition dollars – access that they couldn’t hope to have without being a student at the institution. Accustomed to this kind of access, the student wrongly imagines himself to be equal to the professor and offers advice on how the professor can better sell himself. This student is very immature. This is a cultural problem in contemporary America – (probably a problem with late capitalism – money talks, nothing else matters – if I pay you, you must do my bidding, etc.)
One student told me recently that she tries to offer constructive criticism when reviewing her teachers. That’s like offering constructive criticism to a restaurant about your server – a written complaint to the management. These student evaluations send a bad signal to students – they can’t help but misunderstand. Perhaps constructive criticism by students shouldn’t be so encouraged – I’m not saying it should be discouraged either, but the solicitation of it sends a confusing message to the student and creates an environment that is not necessarily conducive to learning.
Everyone’s an equal just treat each other with a little respect. Besides how can one follow a rule he or she is unaware of. This is why professors usually have a grace period on lateness of at least the first damn day.
So people on both sides here seem to be getting it wrong. To summarize most of the above:
“Students are customers, so he was out of line being rude”
“No, they aren’t, he was teaching so it’s cool”
Students are customers, but what they’re buying isn’t just the material, it’s education. (As an aside, the entire notion that all you get from an education is the specific facts and covered material is what leads to ‘teaching the test’ and some of the above, likely correct, comments on how worthless their education had been.) Part of being educated as a professional is being taught how to act as a professional if you haven’t already figured it out. And a lot of people haven’t. Further, part of being taught any skill well is being told things you don’t want to hear.
Look at it as a gambit, if the student doesn’t take anything away from this email, then no harm done. If the student (or any of the other ones reading it) actually pays attention and decides to shape up their behavior, over the long term what this professor has given them is easily worth the cost of a little not-even-public humiliation.
The professor needs to get off his high-horse. Granted, he was right in dismissing the student because of his established policy, I believe his response to the student’s email was inappropriate. I would even go so far to say that if this email were actually true, it could be grounds for dismissal. While people are trying to defend this professor by saying that he is teaching “respect,” I disagree because his method of “teaching” does not show any respect for the student. It’s a good thing this email was fake because if not I would hope the student took action to get this man fired because he certainly deserves it.
The majority of these repsonses are embarassing and childish. Young, old, teacher, student….everyone is taking a situation in which you were not a part of, under circumstances you are not aware of, context you are not familiar with, and something you did not personally experience. You take this story and explain it into your own “No, this is what’s correct, this is what is justified and here’s why”, “teacher vs. student”, “right vs. wrong” debate to heatedly argue with anonymous strangers on the internet.
Let’s suppose they are both “wrong”, or both “right” for various reasons. What can be said or learned from that? What is the outcome? What is the real lesson?
Let’s say the student is completely wrong and the teacher is completely right. The student is not admitted into class and learns nothing from the experience except carrying a grudge. The teacher feels justified in his e-mail, his class is in order and everything continues as normal.
Let’s say the student is somewhat wrong and the teacher completely is right. The student is not admitted into class and learns from his experience. The teacher feels justified in his e-mail, his class is in order and the world continues to spin.
Let’s say the student is completely wrong and the teacher are completely wrong. The student feels guilty, apologizes and is let back into class having being taught a valuable lesson. The teacher aplogizes for the demeanor of his e-mail and has also learned a lesson.
Let’s say the student is completely right and the teacher is completely right.
Let’s say the student is somewhat right and the teacher is somewhat wrong.
Let’s say student tuitions are ridiculous.
Let’s say it’s a moral/ethical issue.
Let’s say it’s about manners.
Let’s say it’s about respect.
Let’s say it’s about balance.
Let’s say the whole educational system is wrong.
Let’s say the world is a terrible, fucked up place.
Let’s say life isn’t fair.
Let’s say life as it should be.
At what goddamn point does this “he said” “she said”/right vs. wrong/thisishowitis argument become ridiculous? They probably both learned a valuable lesson in the end from the attention they received from this post.
If anyone here has learned anything valuable from life, even paid the remote bit of attention, whether you are young old, black, white, purple, high class, whatever….you might have realized that there isn’t one way of thinking, there is no one way of looking at things. You’re doing exactly what this student and prof. galloway are doing and the irony of it is awesome.
See below:
This type of behavior has become rampant in many areas. The idea that a person of “adult age”‘thinks they can simply burst into a class does not bode well for a student in business, as it can be assumed that the lack of decency they show for an institution they are paying to attend will only transfer to an institution they are working for, but likely not for long, if they can not apply simple manners to a policy for tardiness. I am applauding the professor for what should be a slap in the face for that student for what the real world will hold for them.
[…] https://doanie.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/mean-professor-tells-student/ […]
Ask yourselves this, what direct effect does a student coming late to lecture have on the professor or other students? Aside from some perceived archaic notion of ‘undermining the authority’ of a professor. The answer is, as you all know: none. A student walking late into lecture has zero effect on the students or the professor, unless they all have ADHD and get distracted by a door opening and closing within their peripheral visions. If he wanted to teach her a lesson about how the “real world” works, the middle of a lecture was a not a great time for that. University is not a workplace for students, it’s a learning place. We all know we would get fired for showing up to work late. She would have learned much more if he had let her attend the lecture. I suspect the only thing she got from this was more resentment and bitterness.
Spot on…if you have ever tried to hire a 20 or 30 something year old person for a job, then you will know exactly what this professor is trying to teach.
I do some teaching, and I’m with the student. Too many teachers forget that students are paying customers, and fail to treat them accordingly.
Let’s look at another industry. In all but the most pretentious live theatres, if I pay for a ticket, I get to walk in and out whenever I want; and acting is at least as easily-interrupted as teaching. Is it rude of me to walk in and out? Heck yes! Should I avoid doing it? Of course! Yet, most actors aren’t self-important enough to STOP ACTING, call out a latecomer, and tell them they don’t get to watch today’s performance.
— Ashkuff | http://www.ashkuff.com | How to use anthropology, in business and ADVENTURE!!!!
That prof is a real asshole. Doubt he has much to teach anyone anything. The kid was late b/c he was sampling classes. Nothing disrespectful there. In fact, the inclination to test the waters before diving in is what saved this kid from a likely dreadful semester with an asshole prof who likely wouldn’t grade him fairly. That inclination is the difference between great business leaders who avoid committing themselves and their companies to people and products that will ultimately bring them down and those business leaders who run their companies into the ground. This prof’s ignorant hubris proves true he old maxim that thoses who can, do, and those who can’t, teach.
Ahmed you are absolutely right on. It makes no sense to me why this professor teaching a class of 80+ should even have such a policy about students coming to class late. Furthermore, as a student in a graduate program myself I find it incredibly shocking about the archaic attitudes about the student-professor dynamic I see described in the large majority of comments above championing the professor. Graduate education is a choice and most graduate students make large financial sacrifices in order to pursue this type of education. As uncomfortable as a professor might be with the notion of a student “shopping” for classes on the first day, he needs to understand that he is providing an educational service for a student who is paying tuition and that student should have the opportunity to look at the product before he commits to buying it. His role is not that of drill sergeant or even employer; from where I’m sitting, the tone of his email, his choice to call the student out for coming in late, and his entire policy on attendance only speaks to an ego-driven desire to demonstrate his authority over his students. I think the fact that he replied with such an email and (granted this is heresay) has now made a practice of referring to this incident to scare students into complying with his policy demonstrates how little insight he has into the evolving dynamic of graduate education and how little effort he was willing to make to use this students feedback to gain a greater understanding.
Hmm. I find the teacher’s email much more disconcerting. It’s mean-spirited and smells of power-trip.
Really, is it that distracting to adults when someone enters a room late, or leaves early? It doesn’t throw me off, but I do find it distracting when a teacher stops his/her class to chastise the offender publicly.
For those that are going to be distracted by someone entering a room, I suggest you practice your abilities to focus. You are going to have a tough time out there.
For teachers, keep a check to make sure your authority doesn’t mess up your head. What’s that saying? Oh, yes. Power corrupts? Oh, and here’s another one – lead by example. I hope we all don’t grow up to be douches like this guy. Oh, right … history repeats itself. That’s why there are douches in authority power-tripping everywhere.
Typical pompous professor
The concept of the “consumer learner” is explored in a wonderful book by the same name “The Consumer Learner” by Dr. Silver-Rodis explores the increasing mentality that students believe they are more”customers” rather than students and how this is damaging American classrooms. I am more surprised that a student at such a prestigious university felt the need to “sample” classes like they are cheeses at a Costco instead of take the curriculum set by the program they wished to achieve.
The student’s gender (do you mean sex?) is male.
“[he is] an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on his laptop.” -p. galloway
To the question on the student having paid for the class. At the school I attend now you aren’t charged til you register for the class. This student was basically fishing for an easy night class. If she/he was so interested in the subject, it should have been a done deal. As for the shinning attitude of the student. If you didn’t show up at the next class do you think the professor would have cared? Sometime adding your “enlightenment” to a Prof just makes you like “dumb”. Politically correct or not? Who gives a rip?
JA
They are both jerks.
A university is a BUSINESS that funds professors’ research in exchange for their teaching services and the prestige that that research brings to the school. Where does the university get that money? Students and alumni. The idea that a student shouldn’t be able to shop a class is absurd. In the professional world, someone is paying you to show up on time and perform your expected tasks. In the academic world, you are paying someone for the privilege of showing up on time and performing your expected tasks. I see absolutely no reason why a student should not be able to shop classes – shopping benefits students, who can decide if a class fits with their academic plan, and the professor, who then gets the students who are most interested in his or her course. Everybody wins.
Call my generation undeserving and disrespectful if you wish, but I would much rather take classes where I am fully engaged and excited about the material than disrespect a professor by taking a class that I’m not 100% interested in.
Ever hear of a grant? You literally have zero clue about academia.
If you are fully engaged and excited, you work hard, and take responsibility where you fall short rather than pointing fingers at the book, the professor, or some other lame excuse, then you won’t be disrespected. Those that act like adults are treated like adults. Those that whine like spoiled little children need to learn a different lesson.
Actually, my university derives a large portion of its funding from the state, and that is, in fact, where faculty salaries are paid from – not by the students. Student tuition and fees go to support the buildings, the classroom technologies, the administrative staff, the maintenance staff, and the additional services offered to students.
I know very few people who disagree that students should have no options in their courses; the argument is that this particular student went about ‘shopping’ for classes in a foolish and inherently rude and lazy way. As has been pointed out multiple times in the comments, there are plenty of appropriate ways in which a student can obtain information about a course during the appropriate enrollment time – talking with their advisor or other students, looking at archived evaluations of courses and professors, reading course catalog and class descriptions, looking up old syllabi, finding taped lectures, emailing or meeting with the professors in advance of the class to ask about course requirements, workloads, assignments, grading scales. What was inappropriate was the way this student went about ‘sampling’ the classes – and it reeked of laziness.
The professor didn’t seek out the student to further berate them after dismissing them from his class – the student sought to enlighten the professor and offer a pretty weak defense of his actions. The professor responded in kind.
On another note, sending an email like that to a student is enough to get suspended at my university. Forwarding it to the entire class would be considered public humiliation, and a fireable offense. For those of you saying that the student’s conduct would not be acceptable in a workplace, I’d like to add that the professor’s conduct, which occurred in his workplace, would be unacceptable in any other workplace.
Food for thought.
Chew on this, Aristotle.
An e-mail is not a private communication and the name was redacted so no privacy laws were broken. Because grades were not discussed, FERPA does not apply. You would be floored at what is a fireable offense when the university has to weigh the legal costs of such an action. Swish that one around in your delusional mouth for a bit before you hurt yourself thinking about it.
Tenure, which this professor undoubtedly enjoys, was designed to promote academic freedom, dispense with the “customer service” attitude, and prevent pretentious little d-bags like yourself from walking around like you own the place because of your 1/30kish contribution to the tuition pool (which isn’t even half of the per student funding at a state-funded school) and even that per student money is only a fraction of the overall revenue for an institution of higher education.
Punks like you are the ones I can’t stand the most. Some people are just jackasses and they know it. Your narcissism deludes you into the realm of defensive justification for your abhorrent behavior to where you think you are a paladin of virtue covered in dog shit. Just in case you are wondering, I am not a boomer, I’m in my early 30’s and am appalled at most of the kids coming behind me.
I think both are a bit at fault.
My assumptions: shopping around for classes (electives?) isn’t prohibited; there’s no school-wide policy on tardiness; professors are free to set individualized tardy/attendance policy and are not required to advertise in advance on a student/class forum (Wharton gave us “webcafe” where we downloaded a syllabus and prof could share all sorts of goodies, including reading assignments for the first day of class).
The relationship between student and school is somewhat customer/business; the student is paying for education and the professor is paid to provide this education. This service might be subsidized, as other services in the marketplace are (start up/nonprofit), but the fee of the customer isn’t irrelevant. Yet, the customer is not always right – I learned how to forecast/evaluate when to get rid of a customer from bschool. Some customers cost you more and aren’t worth it (and some products aren’t worth their price).
The student was seeking absolution for fairly disrespectful behavior (basically signalling this was his/her 3rd choice). This is in poor taste and not likely to gain the support/sympathy of others, especially the professor.
This student then wanting forgiveness/not apologizing for poor judgment would have pushed my buttons a tad too, but the professor wasn’t in the clear in his response.
The professor, though technically right to set and enforce his individual tardy policy, went overboard. I sensed venting for prior students who were late and even more rude. If you’re angry at all the other students who’ve been late, that’s on you for not getting over that, not this student.
The professor’s hostility didn’t match the situation. Yes, the student needs to learn an important life lesson – bad judgment isn’t rewarded – but I’m not sure an overhaul – or the student needs to ‘get his @#$% together’ – was warranted.
And when you’re the professor/teacher/adult/supervisor and you resort to cursing when taking those you’re teaching/supervising to task, you’ve lost the high ground. It’s also just lazy to curse, no matter the circumstances; well-educated and articulate people rarely curse when making an important point.
I can’t help but comment on the hypocrisy of the 15 minute late policy. All of this would have been moot had the student just done this within 15 minutes, not 60? So, it’s just the professor’s arbitrary rule? If the rule is that crucial, it should be included on the class forum/syllabus. And, by the way, Wharton students in my class were locked out of a class for being seconds late to a class. So, 15 minutes is a bit dreamy, but alas I digress.
Even though the student didn’t technically know this rule, it’s hard to believe that an hour late is automatically acceptable to everyone. It was risky to show up late – but technically not prohibited.
Both could have behaved better before and after the situation – and, improved outcomes would have abounded :). But, both will suffer the consequences from this – the student will likely resent Stern on some level and potentially not be a great donor because of a single professor’s behavior (especially if s/he knows this story is still being recounted) and the professor and his ego are still bruised, if he’s still reminding current students of it (and all his current students must suffer…).
Oh, and the professor’s typo (“live/work”) made me giggle.
I’m assuming this student has never heard of ratemyprofessor.com (just joking) but seriously, they really do need to get their **** together!
I knew a girl in my Genetics class who would sprint into the lecture hall, stand in the back of the room, stare and gawk at the projector screen for like 10 min., and then sprint off out of the room again. I assume it was because she double booked a course, but seriously, it was the most annoying crap ever. So distracting…it literally happened every single day…I wish the teacher had said something!
Clearly to me, the Teacher seemed old-school, you know the one’s that would hand you your a** when they felt you needed it, and not just to be an a** hole. I have attended a few colleges myself and I’ve never heard of someone “trying out classes”, I’m sure if that was acceptable, every college would have a tryout your classes section, when choosing your classes. I don’t care if your paying 50k or 10k for your education It’s really not that hard. You choose a major, and then choose the classes that you need to meet the requirements for “said major”. Since when, have college courses become like trying on shoes or clothes? It doesn’t work that way! And lets just say it does work like that! what in the heck would you the student get out of sitting in each class on the first day of school for 15-20 min? Absolutely nothing! Other than to see if you liked the teachers tone/attitude whether or not he/she has a laid back teaching approach or a more stern approach. In which we know is not a key component of how successful you will be in a class “YOU THE STUDENT ARE”. So the fact that the student came up with this “master plan”, lets you know his/her way of thinking is probably not really all that logical… I think that’s the problem now a day’s with society, we allow kids to whine about everything, and then we don’t correct inappropriate behavior instead we pamper and baby them to get on their good side, so they grow up being mislead, with a chip on there shoulder and a stick lodged up there a**es while working really hard to find the easiest route for doing everything! And feel like the world owes them something. The truth is I don’t care what the students “Genius” plan was, the fact still remains that he/she was “ONE HOUR” late for class! whether it be the first day of school or the last day of school. Late is late…no matter how you look at it. If he/she graduates and starts their own business/company and set up meetings with three clients/potential clients in the same time slot and shows up late with a silly excuse (that’s clearly a personal one)and does this often with clients, because no one’s ever corrected he/she on what’s expected of a professional, well then they probably won’t be in business for long. But hopefully this life lesson will prevent this from happening. Reality checked!
Not only is the student not a customer he is also not even a peer to the professor. The professor commands and directs learning in the classroom and can do as he sees fit to protect the learning environment and maximize the gain of the students who put forth maximum effort into their education. He is the authority figure. Don’t like it? Pipe down and fill out your comment card you irreverent, whiny brat.
Any arrogant attitude to the contrary is analogous to suggesting you pay a police officer’s salary so he should really be paying you back instead of handing you a ticket. The professor holds tickets too that control your financial future. They are called grades and they do matter more and more in an increasingly-competitive world.
The problem is today’s generation is running rampant all over the public school system because teachers and principals are afraid of the sue-happy parents that are jaded towards their brat’s innocence. They come to college as mostly a collection of deluded, egomaniacal narcissists that only remain polite as long as they are getting what they want when they want it like they are at Burger King. To the delusional narcissist that his rule breaking antics will make him a good candidate for CEO or CFO….yeah maybe for Enron and AIG so you can be their fall guy while everyone puts forth minimal effort to hold back their tears of pity.
Actually, at some colleges, “shopping” classes is a completely sanctioned thing. Yale has a two-week shopping period, during which students are free to come and go as they please so long as they keep up with the work. There is a shopping etiquette (sit in the back of the room if you know you’re going to leave, try to come for a full class period if possible), and some classes (namely seminars) require you to attend all class periods to guarantee your spot. Although it may seem easy to know which classes to take for one’s major, shopping is actually crucial for interdisciplinary majors at Yale, who are often constructing their own course plans and may not be sure if a class will fit that plan based off just the syllabus.
That being said, shopping is an ingrained part of Yale culture and I can understand that if it’s not the way things are done at NYU, that the concept could definitely be unsettling and perhaps offensive.
This professor is to full of himself. If he is so easily interrupted it leads one to think he is not capable of dealing with the smallest of problems. Instead he acts like a rude little tyrant and subjects the whole class to his tirade. He gets an F for judgment, tolerance and courtesy. Perhaps a full time $7.95 job at Walmart would help him gain perspective.
I find the arguments that students’ tuitions pay professors’ “high” wages and professors are those who could not make it in the business world. First, as a professor, teaching is only a small part of my job. I am required to conduct research and do service, which account for about 2/3 of my responsibilities. Students’ tuitions are paid to the colleges, not to the professors, and these fees are then used towards many aspects of running the university, professor wages being only one. Moreover, tuitions are not the only form of income to the university. There are grants, endowments, donations, government funding to name a few. A student might indirectly contribute to my salary, which btw is far below what I would earn outside the university and not even close to 100K as someone suggested above. I have made over 100K in private industry, but I chose to be a professor because I feel I can give more to society that way. Many of my colleagues have made the same choice. I feel dismayed that anyone would feel my profession only attracts those who cannot make it in the public sector. I also find it disheartening that anyone agrees that one “paying” student has the right to disrupt the learning of others (who also pay) and the flow of the classroom because s/he wants to sample classes. Students can easily read over a syllabus, check ratemyprofessor, or ask other students for all the info they need about a course. Those who sample often are looking for the easier option, which professors are aware of from experience. If you are in the situation of instructing a class, you know that a student entering late and leaving early can be distracting to everyone else in the room. It would be far more disruptive if all students felt equally entitled as xxxx and did the same thing. Because they know better and are more considerate, should that mean xxxx should be free to be the only or one of few students who do disrupt the class?
Hmm…I don’t feel like the student “had it coming.” Yes, they probably made a mistake in deciding to “sample classes” in this manner, but from the email, it seemed like an honest mistake.
Does an email asking for an honest clarification warrant the kind of condescending response the student received? Do adults in positions of academic prestige and institutional power believe that they can speak to young people any way that they please? There is a way to give constructive criticism without verbally abusing someone. Perhaps the situation should lead to an honest discussion of the process of class selection?
OMG – I am 56 years old. Shut the fuck up! Geez, you whine over everything. Really, shut the fuck up and take responsibility. if you want an education go to the fucking class – you stupid moron. The professor can do anything he wants. Hint: they are usually a lot smarter than you.
Having read many of your comments, I would like to say that the customer is most likely a parent who is paying tuition and if the student was paying for his/her education this situation would not have happened.
The student here has an idea to sample courses and lecturers which is an okay idea. Except, it is clear that this is not a well thought out plan that is disrespectful to others and demonstrates no regard for the faculty or the other students that this kind of interruption causes. If the student had planned ahead and done this sampling of classes in the term or year before, he/she would be aware of the how the course are handled. And as others have said, he could have emailed, telephoned or met with the faculty first and made a plan that would minimize disruption.
The student in question was only concerned with himself and his needs in such a way that demonstrated his lack of planning, lack of manners, and narsistic immaturity. The professor is right, this student needs to grow up and learn manners and try to occasionally consider how his/her lack of planning effects others
Duh! It’s been ingrained in our heads since elementary school that it is inappropriate to arrive late to class. How could a college student NOT know that?! DUH! Double-duh regarding the “shopping which class to take”. That student will probably arrive late to his first job interview and say, “I wasn’t aware that it was against your policy to arrive late.”
Hmm… What I actually see here is the professor setting an example of a lack of grace and consideration for his students (or prospective students). So while on the one hand, good advise may be gleaned from his email; if you were to follow the professor’s example and become like him, then you would basically become an ass.
The Prof, is considered “successful” already. The student is trying to find his path with his own $. There is no need for the Prof to be so critical. The Prof could allow the student to join but then tell the student of his displeasure in the lecture, gracefully. Prehaps the Prof was letting out steam on the student. And by the way, the Prof is ONLY mentioning his/her own opinion.
Absolutely love the professor´s response. It is not a lack of grace from the teacher, rather an explicit lack of common sense and manners from the student. She should have known better. As simple as that, dumb strategy for scouting a college/master´s class, may if she was entering pre-school it would´ve worked.
As a professor myself I can say with complete certainly that there is not one fellow teacher I know who does not in some way admire this guy or wish they had the balls to say what he did. I have noticed that the responses by those who are appalled at the professors response do not or have never taught. I too have experience the “class shopping” by students and let me tell you – it is extremely annoying to every teacher I know. The reason is that by far, the majority of these students are looking for the easiest teacher, not the teacher from whom they can learn the most from. Also – I would be amazed if the university this man teaches at did not have a university wide policy against tardiness. At my university, policy states that if a student arrives more than 15 minutes late to class that the teacher has a right to dismiss the student and count them as absent. I know many professors who actually lock the classroom door with the beginning bell rings! I also know that unless this is a small private college, universities now require syllabi to be online, thus negating the students argument that he/she would have no way of knowing what the class policy is. While I do not necessarily agree with the professors excessive sarcasm or use of profanity, he state to the student what we are all saying in our heads – “get you shit together!”
As a professor myself I can say with complete certainly that there is not one fellow teacher I know who does not in some way admire this guy or wish they had the balls to say what he did. I have noticed that the responses by those who are appalled at the professors response do not or have never taught. I too have experience the “class shopping” by students and let me tell you – it is extremely annoying to every teacher I know. The reason is that by far, the majority of these students are looking for the easiest teacher, not the teacher from whom they can learn the most from. Also – I would be amazed if the university this man teaches at did not have a university wide policy against tardiness. At my university, policy states that if a student arrives more than 15 minutes late to class that the teacher has a right to dismiss the student and count them as absent. I know many professors who actually lock the classroom door with the beginning bell rings! I also know that unless this is a small private college, universities now require syllabi to be online, thus negating the students argument that he/she would have no way of knowing what the class policy is. While I do not necessarily agree with the professors excessive sarcasm or use of profanity, he state to the student what we are all saying in our heads – “get your shit together!”
He is a SH*T “PROFESSOR” indeed. What a shame to the world of education! So full of himself and little respect for others. Bullying students and still allowed to teach? And students just take it in like that? My goodness, the standard of education has dropped to such pathetic level!
It seems to me that the professor is awfully full of himself.
In this day and age where so many students aimlessly take courses “just for a grade” without any real idea of what they want out of it (or what they want out of their education in general besides being able to say they have a degree), I have to say that I admire the student’s initiative to seek out multiple (conflicting time) courses first before deciding which one to take. It is his/her money paying the tuition after all, so I don’t blame him/her for being choosy about which course s/he is taking. I commend any student that puts thought and consideration into his education planning, instead of picking classes based on “not being too early in the morning” “not having class on Fridays” etc.
And as a former higher ed instructor, my first classes of the semester (as this was in the email) were generally introductions to myself, the course, and a broad overview of what the students could expect to be doing and learning over the course of the semester. It is the perfect class for interested students to check out to see if they like my teaching style and are interested in the course’s learning objectives. It would not bother me at all if a student dropped in for 20 min to decide between my class and another offered at the same time. I have enough confidence enough in my teaching that I know they’d choose me!
This isn’t a popularity issue. The purpose of an MBA is to educate and train students in business. The instructor asked them to leave and come back the next day. He didn’t say that the student wasn’t allowed back into the class. The student, not the professor, took it to the next level. No matter what course it is, the focus of the MBA degree is to help them become better managers. This student’s mindset is their biggest disadvantage. I’m not talking about being late, I’m talking about writing the letter after they’ve decided to go elsewhere. Xxxx lacks critical thinking skills.
As a higher ed instructor, you’ve seen this attitude in some of your students – they don’t meet the requirements, always have an excuse, and take no responsibility for their actions. Are you a nice or mean instructor? At what point do you move from being nice to being mean? Do you enable them so they move onto their MBA program without the skills necessary to be successful? If so, then you are a failure as an educator.
A SH*T “professor” he is. Uncouth, arrogant, behave more like a hooligan than a professor. Bullying students, totally lack of respect for others. And still allowed to teach? My goodness. Education standard has dropped to such pathetic level!
The student’s email irritates me. In no way is she taking responsibility for her behavior or showing any remorse for disrespecting the educational opportunities she is being offered. Education is about improving yourself and your world, and this student blew off this philosophy in front of not one–but THREE professors? How embarrassing.
As a graduate student, you are held to a higher level of accountability. This student couldn’t even respect their education enough to research class options, email or meet with professors, or request a syllabus BEFORE the first class began.
Plain and simple: this student couldn’t cut it and the professor was doing her a favor by telling her to GET IT TOGETHER. There was no ill-will. Just some hard advice: “If you want to succeed, stop f***ing around.”
Bravo, professor.
Well said. It’s only seen as mean if they really don’t want to succeed.
I agree with the professor. Students who arrive late for a class (especially the first) creat a disruption for everyone. You try to answer questions from a large group of students and set a baseline for the semester. Those who arrive late, often feel the professor needs to take the time to get them up to speed. This then takes time away from those who arrive on time, ready to work.
I found this absolutely delightful! It’s about time a professor stands up to a self-riotous sh*t head. Some people think they’re entitled to everything. If you’ve taken at least ONE college level course, you know that showing up 15 minutes late+ is extremely disrespectful! This young person obviously got a news flash! :)!
I’d like to see the professor late to something.
Fontlow, I always got the same compliments about my girls “they’re so polite” “what great manners they have”. To me that’s not a compliment, you’re supposed to have manners.
Hahahah, xxxx should have previously thought about their actions before going forth with it. It’s only obvious that 1 out of the 3 professors classes you went into, they would kick you out.
One must side with the professor on this. It’s not hard to email a professor before classes even start. Plus, what do you get out of drifting between three different classes in one time slot? What a waste of the student’s time. What exactly was this person thinking they could evaluate without experiencing the whole lecture? And showing up to the last one an hour late….depending on how the lecture room is structured, it can be -very- disruptive if the door is toward the front where the room can see you and the professor’s cadence is disrupted by someone nonchalantly walking in and sitting down.
The title focuses on the “mean” professor. But, this issue should not be about whether the professor was mean, or even right or wrong, in their message. The issue should be about the message, and whether it benefitted the student. This student was an MBA student, not a freshman. MBA students are there to specialize and build on the education they’ve already received. They will be perceived as experts in the field of business. Instead of recognizing their blunder, the student assumed the professor was “mean”. Instead of focusing on their own actions, they wrote a letter complaining. Instead of learning, they blamed. This is not a mature individual. This is not someone who is poised to move into the upper ranks of the corporate world. As stated by the professor, they lack critical thinking skills. At that time, an MBA for this student wouldn’t be a major benefit because of their lack of emotional intelligence.
Maybe, just maybe, they took the professor’s advice. If they did, then they are now much more thoughtful, capable, and employable.
So, I don’t see this professor as being mean. I see this professor as taking valuable time to respond to the student’s ignorance to the components of success. Obviously, the student never had an instructor take the time in the past to help educate them. THOSE professors were mean. THOSE professors didn’t care and THAT is the real travesty.
I’ve got a big bottom
Amber Moo Kennedy Moo Kent,
If your first class of the year is intended for course shoppers, you’re sending the wrong message. I thought Chi Omegas were hot.
As a teacher and a mother… Kudos to you teacher… There is a large epidemic, ump gist younger generations right now…. It’s called lack of manners
I know neither the prof nor the student. having read the feedback and comments what it says is whether to go to class an hr late should be accepted? May be student pays for it. Joining a class has to be honoured by following the discipline. The respect to prof is to honour his norms… takers have the hand below the giver… arguing is no answer… You want it come to terms… after all you are gaining knowledge for being future managers of the world… I feel there needs to be a better understanding for the students in this aspect.
M.R.IYENGAR.
I believe the student was rude and perhaps (more than a bit) self-involved. I think the professor was correct in his life lesson email. HOWEVER, I believe the professor, after writing an articulate “life lesson,” was quite proud of himself for composing such a strong message about how “the real world” operates. Not wanting such a well-written diatribe to go to waste on only one student, he shares with everyone, and turns it into a larger conversation. The professor got carried away delivering a message we generally agree with, and, unfortunately, it was at the student’s expense. It’s pretty simple.
Correction to my above note: I think the message within his life lesson email was correct–maybe not the appropriate situation for which to compose it.
All this was was an overreaction on the Professor’s part. I do think it was fair of him to ask her to leave the class, I don’t think it was fair of him to berate her for her actions. It’s more than understandable that she was sampling classes. It baffles me how many people are wholly taking the Prof’s side. I’m tempted to think that many of you rather than thinking critically of the situation and giving fair thought to all perspectives read the Prof’s email and allowed the superior wording and use of, excuse my slang, pretty sweet burns to cloud your decision-making. I advise you to go back and read his email with a more open and present thought-process. Now just to note, if she was entering a small classroom (as opposed to a lecture hall), emailing the Professor would have been a better idea. Nonetheless the reaction was too strong.
A few mentioned that they don’t like when students cite their tuition when arguing certain “rights” . I pay (what is for me) a lot of money and scramble to scrounge up every penny I earn and am still in debt. These are my circumstances so considering this I hope it’s no surprise to anyone that I try very hard to spend that money in the wisest possible way (e.g. consult course descriptions, syllabi, reviews, students who have taken the course prior, email the Professor himself, etc.). I take it as a slap in the face that some of you equate this act of “shopping” to purely an exertion of power and show of disrespect and entitlement. It is so much further from that than you all seem to be able to imagine. Granted I have never “shopped” (though always open to the option) but after reading all this ignorant garbage, I think I’m about to make it my first resource in deciding between classes. Call me childish but just think – then you can tell me what a terrible upbringing I must have and how disrespectful I’m being for trying to get the most out of my education.
You are dead on correct. Those taking the “Professor’s side” are missing the entire POINT of someone spending A LOT for a higher education. In the USA, at least, Education IS a “consumer product” therefore Professors must realize that they are truly nothing more than “employees” delivering a “product” to “consumers” who are the ones ultimately responsible for said-Professors having a job in the first place.
Read the entire thread–or maybe Google up some information on how universities are funded and what proportion of tuition goes toward faculty salaries. Or go up a level of sophistication and think through the ways an education is a “consumer product” in the way that a bottle of beer or a haircut is. What exactly is being “delivered” to the “consumer”? And if the receiver of education is a “consumer,” what happens when the “product” is used up? Does he need a refill? Can he renew his subscription? Can he arrange for regular deliveries? Can it be stored up?
Or am I missing irony? It’s hard to tell satire from reality these days.
Businesses have customers, but if the customers don’t meet the requirements, then they miss that opportunity. Sales have deadlines. Meetings have set times. If a customer is an hour late to the bank to discuss a possible loan, that meeting may have to be rescheduled.
This student was an MBA student in an MBA program. The student is paying for a business education. The point of the MBA program is to prepare for the work place. The 80 students in the room paid a lot of money. Since the late person was NOT enrolled; they were an uninvited guest who arrived an hour late. Yes, things happen and people are late. But, opportunities are lost in life when you don’t show up ate and unprepared. Part of the professor’s job is to to help educate students on what to expect, and how to excel in the “real world”. This was his point in the last paragraph. This student lacks basic skills If a professor in her past had taken the time and energy to be “mean”, she would have understood the expectations in the MBA program, and in the world of business.
Now, with that said, did the instructor deliver the message in the most personable way? No. But, imagine the president of a bank’s response to a customer’s letter, complaining because they had to reschedule the meeting for a loan? The student’s letter was so bold. It pushed the entire experience to another letter. Again, they lacked the basic skills to be successful.
[…] I’ve had a couple of bosses who were terribly hard on me early in my career. I mean, I really felt like it was bordering on abuse or hazing and I’m not exaggerating or complaining like today’s young folks who are really wack (for a prime example of our über entitled next generation, read this https://doanie.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/mean-professor-tells-student/). […]
“Grammar Nazi” – Thanks, Scott. I agree.
Completely off topic, but I find it interesting that everyone assumed the student that walked in late like that was a female when in the professor’s reply, he clearly indicated that the student was a male. I wonder what fueled that connotation (aside from the original blog post’s implication).
But yeah… you’re paying for access to education, student is not a customer, etc etc…
While I find it amusing that the posts from “Grammar Nazi” are not perfectly spelled, perfectly grammatical, etc., I find it disturbing that the email from the “professor” is so badly written, especially in terms of grammar. This academic is supposed to set a good example, and not just in punctuality and respect. The quality of “his” writing leads me to suspect that the whole thing is a hoax, and is not even a true thing that happened several years ago.
Sad and unprofessional response from the instructor. Life lessons? Sometimes people are late. Learn to live with it. This guy must be a real pill.
I read the email exchange, and (unfortunately) many of the responses that followed.
My first questions on the matter seem to not have been answered in the comments. The questions are related, with the first one being, why didn’t the student talk to the professor in person after the class? He had admittedly already decided on taking another course, and I did not see anything resembling an apology in his email. There was no asking to get into the course or an attempt to get information to help with his decision making process.
The next question is regarding both emails: what was their purpose?
What I saw was the student’s need to justify his actions. I don’t understand the need for the student to do so. Again, there was no apology or request for information, only justification.
As far as the professor’s response, it did come across to me as a bit petty. Since this student was not going to be taking his course it is obvious there wasn’t going to be any immediate interaction between the two. Instead of letting this matter drop I think he took it as an opportunity to vent and to send a message not so much to that student, but to the rest of his class and to all of us reading this online.
People here are going to read what they want into this exchange. I see the student trying to justify his bad behavior (if he didn’t perceive it as bad, or didn’t care, he wouldn’t have sent the email) and the professor trying to send a message to a much larger audience.
I largely agree with the professor’s message, if not the delivery.
I think there is room for growth on both sides. If anything, this situation called for a conventional, classic excuse… Professor, I am sorry… I realized other classes I visited were not for me… As for the professor… a direct call, a pedagogical approach, a more giving attitude towards someone who obviously needs to learn… a lot. I honestly wouldn’t want to be a part of this exchange. Communication was simply missing. Student, that is not the way you will succeed in the competitive world of business… yes, but thank you for openly expressing your opinion. After all, the student had the guts to state views openly… that is a plus, most definitely. Rudeness? The professor does not earn the crown as a well mannered individual. As per my book!
I agree with you, Maria. Thank you for your comments. This is not about entitlement as much as it is about a lack of mutual respect all around– for both student and professor in this case.
Additionally, one term that has not been used is bullying. Another term I see missing is arrogance.
Aren’t we, as a culture, freshly aware of the insidious ramifications of bullying? Haven’t HBR and many other journals published numerous articles about the horrendous inefficiencies of a negative work environment? Yes. Therefore, what I see here is a clash of old school verbal abuse (using swear words, public humiliation, etc.) and new school verbal respect. It is not “babying” a person to speak respectfully to them, even if they are not respectful at first towards you. There are ways to convey meaning of discontent without being disrespectful. Lessor minds, less creative minds, stoop to intimidation through swearing and public humiliation. Being respectful, however, is holding your own integrity despite the circumstances and not stooping to the level of that which you do not condone. It is leading by example. In the same way, if a professor’s job is to teach, and if a professor’s job is to be a behavioral compass for misguided young professionals, a professor ought to walk the walk. The best teacher is one who teaches by example. The example in this case, is humiliation, bullying, and dysfunctional dialogue, evidence of someone who could not pull himself together to demonstrate the example of a mature adult and is guilty of the same pre-meditated lack of respect of which he accuses his student. What this professor furthermore shows in my mind is that he is demonstratively afraid of losing his power and his control over his class. That is indeed a life lesson, but a very different life lesson than one of manners and respect that he thought he was teaching. It is a sad lesson of what people in power look like when they do not wield their power effectively enough to command respect with their presence, or, for example, to command the respect of students to attend a course because you are an effective and strong teacher. Would you, my fellow reader, walk in late to hear a speech by your favorite public figure? Would you walk in late to your hear your favorite music group? Probably not.
The second term missing is arrogance. Yes, the student demonstrated arrogance for not considering that his/her fellow students could be disrupted during an important learning experience by appearing late and making noise with doors, books, etc. Yes, this student demonstrated arrogance by writing a cheeky email to the professor without apologizing for interrupting, regardless of whether he/she felt jostled by being kicked out of the classroom. But this professor, again the supposed behavioral compass here, demonstrated the most arrogance I can imagine by kicking a student out of his class without considerately asking the student what happened after class. It is entirely possible that the student has a medical problem, got mugged, what have you. The arrogance of this professor for kicking this student out without giving him/her the benefit of the doubt is nauseating. I understand if the professor could have internally lost his cool upon learning that the student actually pre-meditated a loud disruption 1-hour into lecture, but that is not what happened initially. This professor had no idea and thereby provided the example to all of the students present, and over email no less, that being in power means you can (and ought to) stomp on people, disregard their personal situations, and then publicly chide their “stupidity” after words. To me, this sounds a lot like what went wrong with the Mortgage crisis in the US a few years back. No sarcasm intended. Where were our behavioral compasses on Wall Street when that was going on? Where were the people who could put themselves in other people’s shoes and exercise compassion and empathy? What this professor demonstrated is that empathy and compassion are not relevant in the “Real World.”
This professor could not be more mistaken. The fact is this: If you behave the way this man did towards his student in business, you get weeded out quickly. If you are a person who publicly flaunts being arrogant and disrespectful, you get your roots pulled out immediately. People may laugh and think, “Wow, that was quite the show over there at Stern.” But being notorious is not equivalent to being respected. This man’s example is disturbing. We all have a choice about who we are and how we conduct ourselves. Being a respectful professor does not mean being a pushover or being uncaring and incapable of giving “tough” life-lessons. It means being a mentor. Being the person who will tell you the truth in a way that helps you grow, not shuts you off. Perhaps once a professor knows a student well, it may very well appear that the student needs more explicit dialogue, but not straight off the bat. That is a privilege of a professor who has earned trust and respect, not the privilege or entitlement of the professor in this scenario.
Reblogged this on wofakay says….
Leading a class is hard and interruptions just make it harder.
I was 55 minutes late for my first MA lecture… having spent the time just killing time, convinced the start time was an hour later than it was. At age 50, first time in post-school education, recovering from depression, I’d simply been defeated by the mass of confusions in a long day. BUT I was embarrassed, and apologised.
I got my MA, with distinction. I now teach at the same two universities I attended. I have a student who turned up late for one of her five lectures, and for none of the others; she dropped in on just one of the three assessment days, also late – and left early.
She is now asking for special help with the assignment.
My initial reaction to the late-is-rude lecturer was that I’m a bit kinder than that. But when I think about my own late student, I see that I now need to be as kind as he was.
Simon, UK
[…] role play proper methods of email use, based on the article scenarios. For critical thinking: Read this article about an NYU professor who blasted a business school student for a lack of decorum. Who is right, the professor or the […]
Dollars to doughnuts those who side with the student are people who are also habitually late, & blissfully, ignorantly disrespectful. Contrary to Professor’s warning, however, the business world is full of them at all levels, even the top rungs.
smarter than I
I stopped following this yesterday. How about STOP SENDING ME THIS FUCKING SHIT AFTER I STOPPED FOLLOWING IT!!!!
Howie
“Life’s tough, it’s even tougher if you’re stupid!” John Wayne
My point exactly. 🙂
LIFE IS TOUGH IF YOU ARE STUPID WHAT SCHOOLIS THAT stupidand rude life is over
This sounds like an arrogant professor. The student is paying the professor to be there, not the other way around. If I slipped into a conference workshop session an hour late or left an hour early because it wasn’t worth my time, deal with it.
Apparently he understands this generation of students have no concept of time. Being late is no problem to them. Almost expected.
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Rules within the institution’s policy is fine but I wonder if any and every professor has his or her rules then what the institution turns into? Just a question.
Reblogged this on Punkenstein's Blog and commented:
Prof. of life!
I sm gladthe professor is teaching good manors
[…] is a great blog post making the rounds on Twitter about a tiff between a professor at the Stern School of Business at […]
What a bitch! yup the undecisive disrespectful student who was unapologetic and did not even bother to take responsibility of “her” action …Was she wearing stilletto shoes by Christian Louboutin (fake!) in bright pink, with matching pink/gold Gucci leopard print bag (fake) when she had her dramatic late entrance? lol!
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I’m sorry, but an MBA candidate doesn’t have the excuse of not knowing proper classroom etiquette; they’ve already been through enough school to understand that going to class an hour late is unacceptable. Also, going to class an hour late is not really going to give you a good idea of what the whole class is like. That student clearly knew the professor’s email, and could have easily emailed him (and the two other professsors) prior to the first day of class and asked for a syllabus, which would have simultaneously answered questions about the tardy policy as well as the class itself.
This professor is completely justified in responding in the way he did. I probably would have immediately signed up for his class upon receiving that email, though I would never have gone to class an hour late in the first place.
Wow. The professor is ridiculous.
If I were the manager of a firm picking three companies to partner with, I would do the same thing as this student. I would “court” all of them, get samples of each one, and pick the best one. There isnt much wrong with that.
I understand that college doesnt work that way. You cant just waltz into a classroom an hour late without any negative repercussions. But at the same time, he is paying to learn. The student has a right to choose his teachers, to choose the classes he wants to take (to some extent) and to choose to leave the college if its not good enough for him. He’s a customer, like it or not. The fact that he has a choice to pay or not makes him by definition a customer.
The professor had all the right to kick the student out. I personally wouldn’t have as a professor, because it really doesnt disrupt very much especially on the first day, but its his classroom and he makes the rules.
The professor did NOT have the right to send such a rude email back to the student. Its nowhere in his place to tell the student to “get his shit together” for sampling classes (he could’ve said that if the student showed up an hour late and expected the professor to repeat the lecture). His email was rude, distasteful, and just plain arrogant. The person who needs to in fact get his shit together is the professor himself. A courteous “my classroom, my rules” would have done the job just fine.
I would NOT take a course with this professor. I hope he looses his job or has some repercussions, and learns how to act like a professional the hard way.
it’s clear that you didn’t do any research before making false statements about what entitlements are extended to students, and how they are permitted to be exercised.
You clearly have no idea how a modern university functions. You are not paying me for a service. You are paying the university who in turn pays me as part of my duties to lead a particular course that you happen to attend. I set rules as how I see fit. My class is not a democracy or a market place. Moreover, I have other pressing things that the university pays me to do such as research (which funds students) and service obligations. So, no, I don’t work for you or provide you a service.
Also, if you are shopping around, why don’t you go the bother of DIRECTLY MEETING with the professor in their office? Most professors are more than happy to meet with you one-on-one.
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Wow some people are dum and self centered if they believe that this student was right. I read all of these comments, well most of them. If you were a professor, or a student that was on time and fully invested in the class already, you’d understand that something like that is not fair to other students who are already investing their tuition funds into a class. And more than that, this is the Stern Effin’ School of business, which prepare students for the world of business. Any professor that accepts walking in late to a class would be setting a standard that showing up late for work, your business meeting, meeting with an important (or unimportant) client is considered acceptable. It is actually rather rude. Student have an opportunity to audit a class session in semesters prior. If a student is waiting until the 1 day of class to decide if it’s right, then obviously, that student has done procrastinated on their shopping research. It was very clear, and this is a practice that is Universal- policy is policy and students are expected to follow it even on the first day of class because college, at least in this case, is for adults. Adults are not to be babied. The first thing that a professor would do on the first day of class is distribute the syllabus which would indicate policy. A student being late has no one to blame but themselves. Sounds like a student that doesn’t have the easy skills as part of his skill set. How can this student possibly be ready to accomplish the hard stuff and still be a professional representative of NYU’s Stern College of Business. . Like Galloway said, hedge your bet. (I have no affiliation with NYU or business, or Stern, but certainly empathize with the professor since I am certainly sending several of my graduating seniors to that school following their graduation. I hope they don’t embarrass me by acting unprofessional when they get there. Some teachers work too damn hard preparing their high school student for college and preparing them for the reality that they are about to enter.
I totally agree. Just make sure if you’re going to call someone dumb, you spell it right 😛
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I’m definitely with this professor. Not always but sometimes I get bothered in the same situation, coming in and out of the classroom for multiple times during class; they’re lacking the understanding that they’re not just earning s*** for themselves; they’re diluting the brand by themselves being an ill disciplined, poor quality student or alum. Guys who are not serious should leave now. Sometimes I wonder whether the student selection system is effectively working or not.
Well written and the student deserved every bit of it. Hope he/she takes to heart what the professor had to say and grows up.
Good work professor.
The money I pay for an airline ticket helps pay airline pilots’ salary. Absolutely. But it doesn’t buy me the right to set the rules, including what time the plane leaves. I’ve missed a plane before, and dammit, I was mature enough to admit that it was my fault, not the pilot’s.
My tax money helps pay my local police officers’ salary, but I can’t mouth off to them. *They* are the authority figures; I am not.
Maybe in an economy as consumer-driven as ours, it’s understandable that a few people in each room will have grown up thinking that money buys them authority. However, I rank “the customer is always right” as just as harmful a saying as “everyone gets a trophy.” We shouldn’t try to buy authority. We should earn it.
The professor clearly stated that the student would now be “regretting the send button on his laptop.” It’s not really a big deal, but how did so many people miss that? I assumed it was a girl at first too. I don’t know why, but it seemed that way. I think it was the way everything was worded up until that point. For the record I agree with the professor. There is a certain level of ethics, respect, intelligence, foresight, etc., that I want all men and women conducting business to possess. That want is regardless of whether the business is being conducted domestically, or abroad. My 2 cents have officially been tossed.
Ignorance of law is no excuse. On the other hand a totally engrossed professor in his lecture or discussion does not even notice who is coming and who is going.Take this mail from the professor to any linguist and according to the rules of Pragmatics was arrogant and rude. Shared blame on both sides so let us not take sides.
Seems like it made it an easy choice what class to take. Not gonna take the class with the arrogant asshole professor. Fuck off, fuck face and keep encouraging students to stay away for your stupid fucking class.
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One time, I asked him to keep it down, which he did for about ten seconds, before resuming his SCREAMING. Repeat request, repeat result. So I calmly stopped filling out the worksheet that we were supposed to be doing, gathered my stuff, and moved as far from him as possible. After several minutes, he noticed, and began SCREAMING AT ME, across the classroom, asking if I thought there was too much NOISE going on. He thought it was funny.
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If these stats prove that policy matters, lessons from earlier blogposts is often applied as properly: 1) We have now comprehensive employment from the best 5 of income distribution which mainly includes CEOs, along with their professional advisors; 2) policy to support the middle class will be what moves individuals at that level to complete employment; three) considering the fact that outsourcing is often a main good reason for loss of jobs, policies creating middle class jobs will really have to involve industries that can’t be outsourced, e.g. education, healthcare, infrastructure.
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I feel that both student and professor were both unprofessional. The professors job is to lecture and try to communicate his subject to the best of his abilities. The student must be responsible and express interest in the subject at hand. NYU is not an easy school, and one can’t just sample classes like candy. This article makes me sad, There was once a time were students and professors once cared about one another. It’s a shame to see this article.
Meanwhile, NYU kicks out students 2 years from graduation. Then accepts transfer students, but only after discrediting 1/2 of their previous education.
I like the fact a student cared enough to shop around for the best class. ….NYU shops for the best students, right?
While this letter is 5 years old at this point,I want to set the record straight on a few things. I sat in that class at 6:50 PM as that student walked in from the front of the room, past the professor and into the aisle. It was disruptive and distracting. The professor stopped the class and politely told the student that he would need to come back in the next class ( p.s – it was a he not a she). He was not rude or curt.
Class audits are a normal practice at business school, however it is a policy to ask the professor in advance. It is up to the sole discretion of the professor whether he would allow an audit of this nature.
All of us who took the class knew in advance that Professor Galloway was tough and a no nonsense person. His policy on arriving late is known through the school. So it confuses me as to how this student did not know.
For all those who say,the student paid fees and should be able to do whatever he wants. There were at least a 100 of us in that class and all of us paid our fees as well. We paid to listen and learn from Professor Galloway. We had just as much a right to not be disturbed during class.
When this email was initially forwarded to us by the TA I remember being shocked and yet thankful that at least one professor would be willing to hold students accountable.
To this day, I hold Professor Galloway in the highest regard and will never forget his teaching.
1st day of class? What are you teaching that’s so important on the first day rather than introduction. I hate the professor already. Sounds like one at my college
You folks do realize that these students are not kids, right? NYU MBA students would mostly be experienced folks and probably very accomplished professionals on the verge of or in management. Some may have their own businesses. They are mostly late 20s or 30s..
Well, I still maintain that this professor is an asshole. “Disrupting” the class? Oh my goodness! Everyone looks up for 0.5 seconds and then turns their attention back to what they were doing. The student was looking out for his/her own best interest which is not unreasonable considering the cost of this product, and not at all at odds with what the “real world” of business is all about. I know people disagree with this notion, but what is college if not a product that you are purchasing? I’d say the student in question is ahead of the curve and taught us all a valuable lesson marketing lesson…be an informed consumer. Posting, or “leaking” his little power-tripping beratment of a 20 something is just pathetic and unprofessional. Not very becoming of a man supposedly trying to instill the virtues of respect and professionalism.
Have a heart you stupid professor
His policy on arriving late is known through the school. So it confuses me as to how this student did not know
[…] Mean Professor Tells Student to “get your sh*t together”. […]
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The professor was absolutely correct. You wimpy little kid’s need to shut up, quit complaining about everything and get some backbone.